John K: Bring the sign. We love watching left wingers look like loons. Palin has poll numbers you liberals would sell your first born for. LOL LOL LOL Oh Yah bring the sign. It makes it easier to identify the kooks.
I so completely don't get this, Maria. I'm not voting for her any more than you are. I don't want McCain-Palin to win.
But that's a far cry from hating her, and it certainly doesn't give me license to be rude to her. She's the governor of a state, and she's the vice-presidential nominee from one of the two major parties. She's entitled to an enormous degree of respect.
Just because I disagree with her doesn't mean that I take enormous delight in seeing the end of her political career on the horizon, or that I should rub her face into a quotation from someone who was satirizing her on Saturday Night Live.
Let her come in peace, speak to the people she's coming to speak to, and even -- if you are lucky enough -- shake hands with you. This isn't some gladiatorial fight to the political death. It's just an election.
At a time when Palin and McCain are whipping up a veritable lynch mob by smearing Obama as an unpatriotic guy paling around with terrorists? At a time when their supporters are being whipped up to yell "terrorist" and "kill him" and "sit down boy" (at a black member of the media) at their rallies? (Even the FBI is checking out the "kill him" remark.)
And this sign that at least has some humor -- and isn't calling for anyone's death -- is what you choose to get worked up over???
And, sorry, but since when is it wrong to protest elected officials with who you disagree?
And, again, to be perfectly clear by "protest" I do not mean call for their death.
And, how am I supposed to respect her when she doesn't even respect herself? You can go here to see her flirting with a male reporter. Not just winking but the gross tongue darting thing.
and she is flirting in that video. oh yes, she knows what she's doing.
that's just fine and dandy if you are out on a date or trying to pick up someone at a BAR or win a beauty pagent, but it's disqusting in a serious woman trying for a very serious job.
And what about those people at Palin rallies shouting out to "kill" Obama, calling him a terrorist and a traitor?
John K. - you and your conservative friends have got the lunatic market cornered.
And Sarah Palin will be respected when Sarah Palin treats the voters with respect by not refusing to answer questions, by not making excuses for why she can't answer simple questions, etc.
Considering her partner can't even contain his contempt for Obama for 90 minutes, that he can't even address Obama like a adult by referring to him dismissely as "That one," the calls to treat Palin with deference are laughable.
And like Maria said, if Palin is going to continue to unleash the kind of ugly anger and hatred we're seeing at her rallies, exactly why should either her or McCain be taken seriously? Why should they be shown any respect when they are inciting their supporters to levels of hatred that I have never seen in a campaign?
I'm sorry but Palin represents the kind of dangerous know-nothingism that needs to be removed from our politics. Even conservative columnist David Brooks sees Palin's insouciance toward important issues as a "cancer" on the Republican Party.
John K: We got what market cornered? The left is the group that shouts down conservative speakers on college and university campus. But hey, bring out that sign. It makes it easier to identify the loons. Did you see the SNL skit. Nailed you left wingers to a 'T'. LOL LOL Especially the Barney Frank guy. LOL LMAO
Hey, Kimber... How's +80% in Alaska? Hmmmmm?? How about the HUGE crowds Palin is drawing? How about the fact McCain/Palin are within the margin of error in polls that are statistically sound (i.e., likely voters, not registered voters; reasonably weighted in D v R; taking into account less land-line phones than in past; etc.)... Hmmmm???
My daughter, a 19-yo College student LOVES Palin and WILL vote.. Just last night at Dinner, she expressed her HUGE support for McCain/Palin and made sure I had her voter registration card in my home office desk (I had to show her; 7:01 am on Nov 4, she said)... God Bless my daughter's Conservative leanings.. Sing Hallelujah.. Hallejujah.. Say, Amen. Amen.
I am going to love it when Obama LOSES and the lefties' heads literally EXPLODE! Actually, I dread the reaction if Obama loses... certain factions of the US citizenry may react in a negative manner.. all because they have been lied to for generations by the Democrat Party. Should, by any chance, Obama win, I have ways of weathering the storm and adjusting my lifestyle and income recognition to avoid the MASSIVE tax hikes and income redistribution favored by Obama. I and my family will survive.
Folks, she isn't the anti-Christ. There is no reason to hate her, or ridicule her. There is also no reason to hold her responsible for some of the reprehensible things said by members of the crowd at her rallies, anymore than there is reason to hold Obama responsible for the "kill whitey" leanings of Jerimiah Wright and other Obama supporters.
A more skilled politician than Sarah Palin might have heard someone yell, "kill him!" during her speech, and would have been able to go off-script for a few seconds to chastise that kind of remark. But I'm not convinced that she is that aware of what is going on in the crowd as she nervously looks into the TelePrompter and prays that it keeps working. And Lord knows that she must have been told a thousand times by now that she is never, ever, to go off-script again.
What about the "he doesn't see America like we see America" line, you say. Surely that's racism, pure and simple!" Not even close, I'm afraid. The exact same line -- almost verbatim -- has been used by nearly every Republican candidate (for nearly every office) going back at least 30 years. It's bullshit, of course, but it's also a standard charge that Republicans always level against their liberal opponents. It certainly wasn't racist when GWB said almost the exact same thing about Gore and Kerry.
Some people in the crowd may decide to think that it's a quasi-racist comment. Obviously, a bunch of you certainly do. But again, it's not fair to hold a politician responsible for the shitty behavior of every last person who supports them. If we did that, we would never be able to vote for any one at all.
And even if you are fed up with the hatred that you think the right throws at the left, matching it is not the solution. How can you criticize the other side for demonizing your candidates when you happily go about doing the exact same thing to theirs?
By all means, protest away. Form a picket line outside the venue and hold up signs stating that really supported the "bridge to nowhere". Or that she is trying to tax health care benefits paid for by employers. Or even that you think she's not qualified to take over as president.
But mocking signs that celebrate the potential end of her political career are just plain mean. You wouldn't want me to show up outside your workplace with a sign that says, "Hope you get fired soon!", and Sarah Palin is no less of a human being than you or me. You know, the golden rule applies to everyone, even those who hold public office, and even those with whom you disagree.
There is also no need for beg Pittsburghers to surpass Philadelphians in their rudeness towards Sarah Palin, as Maria did a few days ago. First of all, it's impossible. Rudeness is endemic to the Philadelphia psyche, and it borders on an art form on this side of the street. I've lived in both cities, and Pittsburghers -- with the exception of a few people who work in the Strip District on Saturday mornings -- can't even come close to the average Philadelphia nun when it comes to being rude.
But even more importantly, what happened in Philly to Sarah Palin is hardly something to celebrate. Even some (of the less hard-core) Philadelphians are downright embarrassed by it.
Again, I disagree with her vehemently. I'm not voting for her. But I refuse to demonize her, and I don't think that she deserves anything less than a respectful hearing when she tries to argue her case in Pittsburgh, or Philadelphia, or any other place.
"But I'm not convinced that she is that aware of what is going on in the crowd as she nervously looks into the TelePrompter and prays that it keeps working."
1) It's been debunked that her teleprompter had problems during her convention speech. 2) She had a career as a sportscaster so I'm thinking she's worked with teleprompters before.
"There is also no reason to hold her responsible for some of the reprehensible things said by members of the crowd at her rallies...What about the "he doesn't see America like we see America" line, you say."
It's the paling around with terrorists line that's getting the big reaction and she's repeated it often enough not to need a teleprompter or to be surprised anymore by the crowd's reaction to it.
"anymore than there is reason to hold Obama responsible for the "kill whitey" leanings of Jerimiah Wright and other Obama supporters.
Perhaps you can provide a quote by Wright where he said "kill whitey." And, besides, Obama reputiated him.
"And even if you are fed up with the hatred that you think the right throws at the left, matching it is not the solution. How can you criticize the other side for demonizing your candidates when you happily go about doing the exact same thing to theirs?"
AGAIN: NOT. CALLING. FOR. THEIR. DEATH.
"But mocking signs that celebrate the potential end of her political career are just plain mean."
Funny, I can't recall you chastising me for all my mocking of Lil Mayor Luke. Ever.
"You wouldn't want me to show up outside your workplace with a sign that says, "Hope you get fired soon!", and Sarah Palin is no less of a human being than you or me."
Oh for Pete's sake: I'M NOT RUNNING FOR THE SECOND HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND. She's asking to be HIRED by me. Last time I checked, YOU weren't signing my paychecks.
" I don't think that she deserves anything less than a respectful hearing when she tries to argue her case in Pittsburgh..."
She's not hear to "argue her case." It's not a public meeting -- it's a BIG DOLLAR fundraiser:
- The basic ticket price is $1,000. - A photograph with Palin will cost $10,000. - Those who contribute $25,000 will have the opportunity to sit down at a roundtable with her.
KDKA Political Editor Jon Delano has learned that the event has already raised $500,000 for the McCain Campaign.
I'll agree with you that hatred has no place in the political discourse. Or anywhere else, really.
But, aren't you maybe setting the bar a little low for what constitutes "hatred?"
Is rooting for the end of someone's political career really "hatred?"
I think that she's absolutely qualified to be Mayor of Wasilla. Given that Alaska has fewer people than Allegheny County, and most of it is Federal land, anyway, I'll admit that she may be qualified to be Governor of AK (Note to KGC: Her approval ratings in AK are now in the 60's.).
But go-go boots and winks just won't go very far if she becomes VP and the 25th Amendment comes into play.
I don't believe that's hatred. And if I choose to actively work for her defeat, I don;t think that's hatred either.
Oh, Richard, I'd like you to show me one instance where an Obama supporter has been caught on mic yelling "Kill whitey" at a rally.
And I'd also like you to show me where Rev. Wright said such a thing.
But there is simply no moral equivocation on this matter, Richard, which is rather disappointing to see from yourself, since your generally presenting yourself as a voice of reason. Why you cannot see how over-the-top rhetoric is stoking anger and hatred of Obama is something I think you're just choosing to ignore.
Do you not see the disconnect of your comments? How can you reprimand what people in Philly did if you can so nonchalantly dismiss people shouting out that Obama is a "terrorist" and to "kill him"?
You have a problem with someone holding up a sign that makes a pretty clever turn on the basis for Sarah's foreign policy cred(she can see Alaska from Russia) but you equivocate on the matter of one of her supporters shouting out "Kill him?"
Mocking isn't okay, but threats of violence are?
To tell you the truth, Richard, I think this is an instance where your presumed and supreme objectivity has backed you into a corner. You cannot possibly be taken seriously if you have a problem with mockery and not shouts of violence against a Presidential candidate.
If Obama were using incendiary rhetoric to stoke fear and hate, he would most certainly be held responsible. And for good reason - we should hold people accoutnable for what they say and the reaction it produces.
But there is simply nothing comparable on the left - you don't hear anyone threatening violence or calling John McCain a traitor.
And I just want to thank the wingers for proving my point that they have cornered the market on lunacy.
We have John K. who has decided to just stick his head in the sand and pretend everything's just going swimmingly for McCain. I guess Palin's approval ratings in Alaska would matter if she were running for re-election as Alaska's governor.
Too bad she's not, because the American people are not impressed by Sarah Palin. They also don't vote for the VP, so it's a shame McCain is at the top of your ticket.
And to KGC, for continue this emerging rightwing meme that some "certain factions" will respond with violence if Obama loses, because that's what "those people" do, right KGC?
Look - if you little winger chickenshits can't be honest about your racist sentiments, your distrust of African-Americans and other ethnic groups, either just come out and say it or shut the hell up.
Don't be coy, KGC. Man-up and say what you mean. Don't hide it by trying to be clever and indirect.
And honestly, you're reaction to the idea of an Obama Presidency is very telling - you're unhinged, you're an anti-social freak. To take the position you have - as though you'll be surving some sort of apocalypse - is laughable considering the state of the country and what people have had to deal with under 8 years of George W. Bush.
That Republicans cannot accept any responsiblity for what they have done to the country, that they can fool themselves into believing that they didn't have a hand in it, just shows how delusional you folks have become.
Honestly - could our wingers come across as any more desperate than they are?
"And to KGC, for continue this emerging rightwing meme that some "certain factions" will respond with violence if Obama loses, because that's what "those people" do, right KGC?
Look - if you little winger chickenshits can't be honest about your racist sentiments, your distrust of African-Americans and other ethnic groups, either just come out and say it or shut the hell up.
Don't be coy, KGC. Man-up and say what you mean. Don't hide it by trying to be clever and indirect."
You make a really good point, jayville, even if you -- like so many others before you -- can't seem to see that it's RichMOND, and not RichARD. I fully agree that threats of violence are horrible, and way, way, way, way, way worse than the sort of rudeness that I am chastising the lady with the sign for. And I think (hope?) that the law might back you up on this as well. I actually don't know the legal ins and outs on this one, but I do know that shouting something like "kill him" about a sitting president will earn you (at the very least) a lovely visit from USSS folks who take that kind of thing very, very seriously.
I hope the same rules apply to candidates with Secret Service protection, but I'm not sure.
The only difference is that I don't feel that have any hope at all of convincing some idiot who truly wants Obama dead, and is willing to shout this sentiment out loud in front of thousands of people, that he should "tone it down". He's beyond hope, but he's also gone so far past acceptable behavior that 99% of people -- hopefully, more like 99.999% of people -- would forever shut out his rantings and never give his arguments a shed of credibility again. Lunatics and assholes like this will always be with us, and there is really nothing to do with them but let the dedicated people of the Secret Service keep a very close eye on them.
But Maria and even the lady with the sign are different. Especially Maria, at least to me. I'm never going to shut out her arguments, or dismiss her as a lunatic. I love to engage with her, and there have been plenty of times where her (and David's) arguments have pushed me a bit closer to their side of an issue. I would hope (although I would never be so presumptuous as to assume) that the reverse has, on occasion, happened as well.
I do feel strongly that we, as a country, have gone too far in seeing elections as battles, and that we have polarized ourselves so much that healing these rifts and being able to talk to one another like rational adults may soon be totally impossible. Someone has to be the first to stop this endless cycle of, "I'm not voting for you, so I must also hate you".
I'm never going to be able to convince the truly racist to give up on hating Obama. But I do have more hope for the people here. We don't have to vote for John McCain or Sarah Palin. But we also don't have to sacrifice our dignity or theirs in making that point.
Maybe it's a lost cause to hope that we could vote on issues and not because we think McCain is "Crazy Grampa" or that Palin is a brainless "Caribou Barbie". Neither one of them is a bad person, and there are issues that I'm sure the three of us would agree about (sonar training off the California coastline comes to mind). But on the whole, I tend to agree with Obama on more issues than I do with McCain.
That doesn't make McCain crazy, or stupid, or erratic, anymore than it automatically makes everything about Obama the essence of perfection. It just makes McCain someone who I'm not going to vote for. That's all, and I wish him well after the election and hope that he returns to the Senate and continues to do some of the good things that I've agreed with him about in the past.
I don't know if this is making any sense, but I'm not advocating these things in this forum because I want to piss the rest of you off. I'm doing it because the only way forward for our political system is for people to stop demonizing each other and start working together, and I have far more hope that the people here will be able to do that. If it's going to start anywhere, it's going to start with the smart ones, and this is the kind of place where those people hang out.
I hear what your saying, Richmond, and I think you make some excellent points:
"But we also don't have to sacrifice our dignity or theirs in making that point."
"I'm doing it because the only way forward for our political system is for people to stop demonizing each other and start working together"
Well said and I completely follow what you're saying.
To answer the legal questions you raised, there were stories yesterday that the Secret Service was investigating the "Kill him" shout at the FL Palin rally. Any threat of violence against any candidate under Secret Service protection is going to be taken seriously, so in that sense, it is more or less the same as it is with the President.
Also with regards to this, David Gergen pointed out something I think is very important tonight on CNN. Gergen is a very level-headed guy. And the point he made about the calls to "Kill him" and shouts that Obama was a "terrorist" was that when that occurs, the speaker(in this case Sarah Palin) has a moral responsibility to directly counter those kinds of comments from the crowd. His point was that it is simply not appropriate to just let it happen.
Gergen described what he saw at the Palin rallies as a lot of people have - ugly. Personally, it's an ugliness I've never seen in at a campaign rally before. But I think Gergen is essentially correct - public speakers are responsible for what they say and the response that that invokes.
I'm rehashing what I've said earlier, but I felt Gergen's opinion added some weight to the slight backlash that has emerged following what happened at the Palin rallies.
Again, Richmond, thanks for the dialogue. I've disagreed with you in the past but you have always presented yourself well - reasoned, conviction, well-spoken. You're a credit to the community here. Thank you.
Thanks for pointing me to the Gergen interview, and (as usual) both you and he are absolutely correct. It is the clear and unambiguous duty of the speaker (and the campaign she represents) to call members of the audience out when they go beyond the pale this way. Can you even imagine Obama or Biden not pausing their prepared remarks to chastise this kind of behavior at one of their rallies? I certainly can't, and that's one more reason to vote for them this time around.
There are more or less three possible things that happened with Sarah Palin in this case. First, she may not have heard the remark, or at least not heard it clearly enough to be sure what was said. Second, she heard the remark and decided not to react to it, for a variety of relatively benign reasons. Maybe she is unable to go off piste as a speaker, maybe she was told to stick to her prepared remarks at all costs, or maybe she felt that drawing attention to this hatred would only add fuel to the fire. The third and final possibility is that she heard exactly what was said, and was impressed to see that she had gotten the crowd to be so "energetic".
Only one of these three possibilities paints Palin as someone who deliberately promotes and supports racism, and it's by far the most unlikely possibility presented. So I'm willing to give her (some) benefit of the doubt here.
But there were still things that she (and, again, the campaign) could have done after the rally was over. If she hadn't noticed it while she was speaking, she is certainly aware of it now. And if she deliberately chose not to react to it when it happened, she should be pretty clear by this stage that she chose the wrong strategy. Even if it's way too late, these remarks must -- absolutely must -- be condemned (plus repudiated, rebuked, and a bunch of other similar words drawn from the political thesaurus) immediately by Palin and the McCain campaign.
Racism and political hate speech is a lot like vampirism. The easiest way to kill it is to drag it out into the sunlight.
John K: Actually I heard it is the left that will riot if Hussein Obama does not get elected. After all, it was the left that threatened violence at the DNC convention. And I defy any left winger in here to identify the last time the right wing rioted when they lost an election. LMAO Control your anger there Maria. LOL
When was the last time the left rioted when they lost an election, John? Remember that protests are not riots, and it has to be an election, not an appointment.
32 comments:
John K: Bring the sign. We love watching left wingers look like loons. Palin has poll numbers you liberals would sell your first born for. LOL LOL LOL Oh Yah bring the sign. It makes it easier to identify the kooks.
Is that Jon Voight?
yeah, he's a rabid right winger.
So, if the Midnight Cowboy's on the campaign trail, does that make Palin 'Ratso?'
I so completely don't get this, Maria. I'm not voting for her any more than you are. I don't want McCain-Palin to win.
But that's a far cry from hating her, and it certainly doesn't give me license to be rude to her. She's the governor of a state, and she's the vice-presidential nominee from one of the two major parties. She's entitled to an enormous degree of respect.
Just because I disagree with her doesn't mean that I take enormous delight in seeing the end of her political career on the horizon, or that I should rub her face into a quotation from someone who was satirizing her on Saturday Night Live.
Let her come in peace, speak to the people she's coming to speak to, and even -- if you are lucky enough -- shake hands with you. This isn't some gladiatorial fight to the political death. It's just an election.
For heaven's sake, tone down the hate.
Tone down the hate?
You're kidding, right?
At a time when Palin and McCain are whipping up a veritable lynch mob by smearing Obama as an unpatriotic guy paling around with terrorists? At a time when their supporters are being whipped up to yell "terrorist" and "kill him" and "sit down boy" (at a black member of the media) at their rallies? (Even the FBI is checking out the "kill him" remark.)
And this sign that at least has some humor -- and isn't calling for anyone's death -- is what you choose to get worked up over???
And, sorry, but since when is it wrong to protest elected officials with who you disagree?
And, again, to be perfectly clear by "protest" I do not mean call for their death.
Sheesh!
John K: Jon Voight used to be a lefty loon. He has seen the light.
Amen Maria, amen.
And, how am I supposed to respect her when she doesn't even respect herself? You can go here to see her flirting with a male reporter. Not just winking but the gross tongue darting thing.
she is a freaking insult to women and to politics in general.
terrorist, my god!
that isn't campaigning, it's crossed the line into inciting violence.
and this from a woman who had been to meetings with her husband about secession from the united states.
and she is flirting in that video. oh yes, she knows what she's doing.
that's just fine and dandy if you are out on a date or trying to pick up someone at a BAR or win a beauty pagent, but it's disqusting in a serious woman trying for a very serious job.
Leftwing loons?
And what about those people at Palin rallies shouting out to "kill" Obama, calling him a terrorist and a traitor?
John K. - you and your conservative friends have got the lunatic market cornered.
And Sarah Palin will be respected when Sarah Palin treats the voters with respect by not refusing to answer questions, by not making excuses for why she can't answer simple questions, etc.
Considering her partner can't even contain his contempt for Obama for 90 minutes, that he can't even address Obama like a adult by referring to him dismissely as "That one," the calls to treat Palin with deference are laughable.
And like Maria said, if Palin is going to continue to unleash the kind of ugly anger and hatred we're seeing at her rallies, exactly why should either her or McCain be taken seriously? Why should they be shown any respect when they are inciting their supporters to levels of hatred that I have never seen in a campaign?
I'm sorry but Palin represents the kind of dangerous know-nothingism that needs to be removed from our politics. Even conservative columnist David Brooks sees Palin's insouciance toward important issues as a "cancer" on the Republican Party.
John K: We got what market cornered? The left is the group that shouts down conservative speakers on college and university campus. But hey, bring out that sign. It makes it easier to identify the loons. Did you see the SNL skit. Nailed you left wingers to a 'T'. LOL LOL Especially the Barney Frank guy. LOL LMAO
John K: You lefties would sell your first born for Palin's approval ratings. LMAO LOL LOL
What approval ratings are those, johnk? Give a source.
Hey, Kimber... How's +80% in Alaska? Hmmmmm?? How about the HUGE crowds Palin is drawing? How about the fact McCain/Palin are within the margin of error in polls that are statistically sound (i.e., likely voters, not registered voters; reasonably weighted in D v R; taking into account less land-line phones than in past; etc.)... Hmmmm???
My daughter, a 19-yo College student LOVES Palin and WILL vote.. Just last night at Dinner, she expressed her HUGE support for McCain/Palin and made sure I had her voter registration card in my home office desk (I had to show her; 7:01 am on Nov 4, she said)... God Bless my daughter's Conservative leanings.. Sing Hallelujah.. Hallejujah.. Say, Amen. Amen.
I am going to love it when Obama LOSES and the lefties' heads literally EXPLODE! Actually, I dread the reaction if Obama loses... certain factions of the US citizenry may react in a negative manner.. all because they have been lied to for generations by the Democrat Party. Should, by any chance, Obama win, I have ways of weathering the storm and adjusting my lifestyle and income recognition to avoid the MASSIVE tax hikes and income redistribution favored by Obama. I and my family will survive.
Sorta like the legal disclaimer of many commercials...
Waiting for obligatory Racist allegation... 'cuz, every comment critical of "The One" is Racist.
Approval ratings? More than half of Americans polled believe her to be unqualified. That's pathetic. And accurate.
Folks, she isn't the anti-Christ. There is no reason to hate her, or ridicule her. There is also no reason to hold her responsible for some of the reprehensible things said by members of the crowd at her rallies, anymore than there is reason to hold Obama responsible for the "kill whitey" leanings of Jerimiah Wright and other Obama supporters.
A more skilled politician than Sarah Palin might have heard someone yell, "kill him!" during her speech, and would have been able to go off-script for a few seconds to chastise that kind of remark. But I'm not convinced that she is that aware of what is going on in the crowd as she nervously looks into the TelePrompter and prays that it keeps working. And Lord knows that she must have been told a thousand times by now that she is never, ever, to go off-script again.
What about the "he doesn't see America like we see America" line, you say. Surely that's racism, pure and simple!" Not even close, I'm afraid. The exact same line -- almost verbatim -- has been used by nearly every Republican candidate (for nearly every office) going back at least 30 years. It's bullshit, of course, but it's also a standard charge that Republicans always level against their liberal opponents. It certainly wasn't racist when GWB said almost the exact same thing about Gore and Kerry.
Some people in the crowd may decide to think that it's a quasi-racist comment. Obviously, a bunch of you certainly do. But again, it's not fair to hold a politician responsible for the shitty behavior of every last person who supports them. If we did that, we would never be able to vote for any one at all.
And even if you are fed up with the hatred that you think the right throws at the left, matching it is not the solution. How can you criticize the other side for demonizing your candidates when you happily go about doing the exact same thing to theirs?
By all means, protest away. Form a picket line outside the venue and hold up signs stating that really supported the "bridge to nowhere". Or that she is trying to tax health care benefits paid for by employers. Or even that you think she's not qualified to take over as president.
But mocking signs that celebrate the potential end of her political career are just plain mean. You wouldn't want me to show up outside your workplace with a sign that says, "Hope you get fired soon!", and Sarah Palin is no less of a human being than you or me. You know, the golden rule applies to everyone, even those who hold public office, and even those with whom you disagree.
There is also no need for beg Pittsburghers to surpass Philadelphians in their rudeness towards Sarah Palin, as Maria did a few days ago. First of all, it's impossible. Rudeness is endemic to the Philadelphia psyche, and it borders on an art form on this side of the street. I've lived in both cities, and Pittsburghers -- with the exception of a few people who work in the Strip District on Saturday mornings -- can't even come close to the average Philadelphia nun when it comes to being rude.
But even more importantly, what happened in Philly to Sarah Palin is hardly something to celebrate. Even some (of the less hard-core) Philadelphians are downright embarrassed by it.
Again, I disagree with her vehemently. I'm not voting for her. But I refuse to demonize her, and I don't think that she deserves anything less than a respectful hearing when she tries to argue her case in Pittsburgh, or Philadelphia, or any other place.
"But I'm not convinced that she is that aware of what is going on in the crowd as she nervously looks into the TelePrompter and prays that it keeps working."
1) It's been debunked that her teleprompter had problems during her convention speech.
2) She had a career as a sportscaster so I'm thinking she's worked with teleprompters before.
"There is also no reason to hold her responsible for some of the reprehensible things said by members of the crowd at her rallies...What about the "he doesn't see America like we see America" line, you say."
It's the paling around with terrorists line that's getting the big reaction and she's repeated it often enough not to need a teleprompter or to be surprised anymore by the crowd's reaction to it.
"anymore than there is reason to hold Obama responsible for the "kill whitey" leanings of Jerimiah Wright and other Obama supporters.
Perhaps you can provide a quote by Wright where he said "kill whitey." And, besides, Obama reputiated him.
"And even if you are fed up with the hatred that you think the right throws at the left, matching it is not the solution. How can you criticize the other side for demonizing your candidates when you happily go about doing the exact same thing to theirs?"
AGAIN: NOT. CALLING. FOR. THEIR. DEATH.
"But mocking signs that celebrate the potential end of her political career are just plain mean."
Funny, I can't recall you chastising me for all my mocking of Lil Mayor Luke. Ever.
"You wouldn't want me to show up outside your workplace with a sign that says, "Hope you get fired soon!", and Sarah Palin is no less of a human being than you or me."
Oh for Pete's sake: I'M NOT RUNNING FOR THE SECOND HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND. She's asking to be HIRED by me. Last time I checked, YOU weren't signing my paychecks.
" I don't think that she deserves anything less than a respectful hearing when she tries to argue her case in Pittsburgh..."
She's not hear to "argue her case." It's not a public meeting -- it's a BIG DOLLAR fundraiser:
- The basic ticket price is $1,000.
- A photograph with Palin will cost $10,000.
- Those who contribute $25,000 will have the opportunity to sit down at a roundtable with her.
KDKA Political Editor Jon Delano has learned that the event has already raised $500,000 for the McCain Campaign.
This ain't Mrs Smith goes to Washington.
Admiral Turner,
I'll agree with you that hatred has no place in the political discourse. Or anywhere else, really.
But, aren't you maybe setting the bar a little low for what constitutes "hatred?"
Is rooting for the end of someone's political career really "hatred?"
I think that she's absolutely qualified to be Mayor of Wasilla. Given that Alaska has fewer people than Allegheny County, and most of it is Federal land, anyway, I'll admit that she may be qualified to be Governor of AK (Note to KGC: Her approval ratings in AK are now in the 60's.).
But go-go boots and winks just won't go very far if she becomes VP and the 25th Amendment comes into play.
I don't believe that's hatred. And if I choose to actively work for her defeat, I don;t think that's hatred either.
Do you?
Oh, Richard, I'd like you to show me one instance where an Obama supporter has been caught on mic yelling "Kill whitey" at a rally.
And I'd also like you to show me where Rev. Wright said such a thing.
But there is simply no moral equivocation on this matter, Richard, which is rather disappointing to see from yourself, since your generally presenting yourself as a voice of reason. Why you cannot see how over-the-top rhetoric is stoking anger and hatred of Obama is something I think you're just choosing to ignore.
Do you not see the disconnect of your comments? How can you reprimand what people in Philly did if you can so nonchalantly dismiss people shouting out that Obama is a "terrorist" and to "kill him"?
You have a problem with someone holding up a sign that makes a pretty clever turn on the basis for Sarah's foreign policy cred(she can see Alaska from Russia) but you equivocate on the matter of one of her supporters shouting out "Kill him?"
Mocking isn't okay, but threats of violence are?
To tell you the truth, Richard, I think this is an instance where your presumed and supreme objectivity has backed you into a corner. You cannot possibly be taken seriously if you have a problem with mockery and not shouts of violence against a Presidential candidate.
If Obama were using incendiary rhetoric to stoke fear and hate, he would most certainly be held responsible. And for good reason - we should hold people accoutnable for what they say and the reaction it produces.
But there is simply nothing comparable on the left - you don't hear anyone threatening violence or calling John McCain a traitor.
And I just want to thank the wingers for proving my point that they have cornered the market on lunacy.
We have John K. who has decided to just stick his head in the sand and pretend everything's just going swimmingly for McCain. I guess Palin's approval ratings in Alaska would matter if she were running for re-election as Alaska's governor.
Too bad she's not, because the American people are not impressed by Sarah Palin. They also don't vote for the VP, so it's a shame McCain is at the top of your ticket.
And to KGC, for continue this emerging rightwing meme that some "certain factions" will respond with violence if Obama loses, because that's what "those people" do, right KGC?
Look - if you little winger chickenshits can't be honest about your racist sentiments, your distrust of African-Americans and other ethnic groups, either just come out and say it or shut the hell up.
Don't be coy, KGC. Man-up and say what you mean. Don't hide it by trying to be clever and indirect.
And honestly, you're reaction to the idea of an Obama Presidency is very telling - you're unhinged, you're an anti-social freak. To take the position you have - as though you'll be surving some sort of apocalypse - is laughable considering the state of the country and what people have had to deal with under 8 years of George W. Bush.
That Republicans cannot accept any responsiblity for what they have done to the country, that they can fool themselves into believing that they didn't have a hand in it, just shows how delusional you folks have become.
Honestly - could our wingers come across as any more desperate than they are?
"And to KGC, for continue this emerging rightwing meme that some "certain factions" will respond with violence if Obama loses, because that's what "those people" do, right KGC?
Look - if you little winger chickenshits can't be honest about your racist sentiments, your distrust of African-Americans and other ethnic groups, either just come out and say it or shut the hell up.
Don't be coy, KGC. Man-up and say what you mean. Don't hide it by trying to be clever and indirect."
THANK YOU!
You make a really good point, jayville, even if you -- like so many others before you -- can't seem to see that it's RichMOND, and not RichARD. I fully agree that threats of violence are horrible, and way, way, way, way, way worse than the sort of rudeness that I am chastising the lady with the sign for. And I think (hope?) that the law might back you up on this as well. I actually don't know the legal ins and outs on this one, but I do know that shouting something like "kill him" about a sitting president will earn you (at the very least) a lovely visit from USSS folks who take that kind of thing very, very seriously.
I hope the same rules apply to candidates with Secret Service protection, but I'm not sure.
The only difference is that I don't feel that have any hope at all of convincing some idiot who truly wants Obama dead, and is willing to shout this sentiment out loud in front of thousands of people, that he should "tone it down". He's beyond hope, but he's also gone so far past acceptable behavior that 99% of people -- hopefully, more like 99.999% of people -- would forever shut out his rantings and never give his arguments a shed of credibility again. Lunatics and assholes like this will always be with us, and there is really nothing to do with them but let the dedicated people of the Secret Service keep a very close eye on them.
But Maria and even the lady with the sign are different. Especially Maria, at least to me. I'm never going to shut out her arguments, or dismiss her as a lunatic. I love to engage with her, and there have been plenty of times where her (and David's) arguments have pushed me a bit closer to their side of an issue. I would hope (although I would never be so presumptuous as to assume) that the reverse has, on occasion, happened as well.
I do feel strongly that we, as a country, have gone too far in seeing elections as battles, and that we have polarized ourselves so much that healing these rifts and being able to talk to one another like rational adults may soon be totally impossible. Someone has to be the first to stop this endless cycle of, "I'm not voting for you, so I must also hate you".
I'm never going to be able to convince the truly racist to give up on hating Obama. But I do have more hope for the people here. We don't have to vote for John McCain or Sarah Palin. But we also don't have to sacrifice our dignity or theirs in making that point.
Maybe it's a lost cause to hope that we could vote on issues and not because we think McCain is "Crazy Grampa" or that Palin is a brainless "Caribou Barbie". Neither one of them is a bad person, and there are issues that I'm sure the three of us would agree about (sonar training off the California coastline comes to mind). But on the whole, I tend to agree with Obama on more issues than I do with McCain.
That doesn't make McCain crazy, or stupid, or erratic, anymore than it automatically makes everything about Obama the essence of perfection. It just makes McCain someone who I'm not going to vote for. That's all, and I wish him well after the election and hope that he returns to the Senate and continues to do some of the good things that I've agreed with him about in the past.
I don't know if this is making any sense, but I'm not advocating these things in this forum because I want to piss the rest of you off. I'm doing it because the only way forward for our political system is for people to stop demonizing each other and start working together, and I have far more hope that the people here will be able to do that. If it's going to start anywhere, it's going to start with the smart ones, and this is the kind of place where those people hang out.
My sincerest apologies, Richmond, for getting your name incorrect.
Thank you for pointing it out!
I hear what your saying, Richmond, and I think you make some excellent points:
"But we also don't have to sacrifice our dignity or theirs in making that point."
"I'm doing it because the only way forward for our political system is for people to stop demonizing each other and start working together"
Well said and I completely follow what you're saying.
To answer the legal questions you raised, there were stories yesterday that the Secret Service was investigating the "Kill him" shout at the FL Palin rally. Any threat of violence against any candidate under Secret Service protection is going to be taken seriously, so in that sense, it is more or less the same as it is with the President.
Also with regards to this, David Gergen pointed out something I think is very important tonight on CNN. Gergen is a very level-headed guy. And the point he made about the calls to "Kill him" and shouts that Obama was a "terrorist" was that when that occurs, the speaker(in this case Sarah Palin) has a moral responsibility to directly counter those kinds of comments from the crowd. His point was that it is simply not appropriate to just let it happen.
Gergen described what he saw at the Palin rallies as a lot of people have - ugly. Personally, it's an ugliness I've never seen in at a campaign rally before. But I think Gergen is essentially correct - public speakers are responsible for what they say and the response that that invokes.
I'm rehashing what I've said earlier, but I felt Gergen's opinion added some weight to the slight backlash that has emerged following what happened at the Palin rallies.
Again, Richmond, thanks for the dialogue. I've disagreed with you in the past but you have always presented yourself well - reasoned, conviction, well-spoken. You're a credit to the community here. Thank you.
Thanks for pointing me to the Gergen interview, and (as usual) both you and he are absolutely correct. It is the clear and unambiguous duty of the speaker (and the campaign she represents) to call members of the audience out when they go beyond the pale this way. Can you even imagine Obama or Biden not pausing their prepared remarks to chastise this kind of behavior at one of their rallies? I certainly can't, and that's one more reason to vote for them this time around.
There are more or less three possible things that happened with Sarah Palin in this case. First, she may not have heard the remark, or at least not heard it clearly enough to be sure what was said. Second, she heard the remark and decided not to react to it, for a variety of relatively benign reasons. Maybe she is unable to go off piste as a speaker, maybe she was told to stick to her prepared remarks at all costs, or maybe she felt that drawing attention to this hatred would only add fuel to the fire. The third and final possibility is that she heard exactly what was said, and was impressed to see that she had gotten the crowd to be so "energetic".
Only one of these three possibilities paints Palin as someone who deliberately promotes and supports racism, and it's by far the most unlikely possibility presented. So I'm willing to give her (some) benefit of the doubt here.
But there were still things that she (and, again, the campaign) could have done after the rally was over. If she hadn't noticed it while she was speaking, she is certainly aware of it now. And if she deliberately chose not to react to it when it happened, she should be pretty clear by this stage that she chose the wrong strategy. Even if it's way too late, these remarks must -- absolutely must -- be condemned (plus repudiated, rebuked, and a bunch of other similar words drawn from the political thesaurus) immediately by Palin and the McCain campaign.
Racism and political hate speech is a lot like vampirism. The easiest way to kill it is to drag it out into the sunlight.
John K: Actually I heard it is the left that will riot if Hussein Obama does not get elected. After all, it was the left that threatened violence at the DNC convention. And I defy any left winger in here to identify the last time the right wing rioted when they lost an election. LMAO Control your anger there Maria. LOL
John K: So who in here changed their vote due to the recent debate? LMAO
When was the last time the left rioted when they lost an election, John? Remember that protests are not riots, and it has to be an election, not an appointment.
*crickets*
johnk,
There was the infamous Brooks Brothers Riot, in 2000, of course.
But, rather than continue this ridiculous line:
"When was the last time" anybody "rioted" after an election in the US? Hell, for any office?
It's always a riot in John's head. A laugh riot, that is.
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