I read about this blog in the City Paper and then heard one of you on the radio today, so I thought I would stop by leave a note. The radio engagement seems to be going well so far.
I heard David DeAngelo talking on the Lynn Cullen show about the Swiftvet's accusations about John Kerry being "out of left field" . Does he care to provide some examples?
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Or his WinterSoldier Testimony "They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."
That's right, John Kerry Heinz is one of our greatest war heros in history. Who else could spend 4 months in vietnam and receive 3 purple hearts, a bronze and silver star.
All that and not a scratch to show for it.
Move over Audy Murphy, there's a real hero coming aboard.
Read your letter. On his side, Kerry has official military records, the testimony of the men on his boat and the testimony of some of the men on other boats. On the other side, there is the testimony of men not on his boat, claims by men not even in the area at the time and flip-flops by some of these men on what they said as recently as 10 years ago. It contains no specifics. That and the repeating of the talking point that the Swiftvets are a Karl Rove engineered smear on Kerry.
Can you take the Beldar challenge "Can you identify even one specific and material SwiftVets allegation that you believe to have been fully "debunked" or fully proven to be "unsubstantiated"? " I am sure this will be easy for you as the debunking of the Swiftvets is seared -- seared in your memory.
The left wing moonbats continually say that the Swift Boat Heros allegations were totally debunked; but when you ask them for one example, they come up mute. Then they call Bush AWOL and you a Nazi and walk away.
Has this question occurred to anyone else: Why do the Wignuttians bother to do what they do here?
Certainly they can't think they will change anyone's mind by making undocumented claims that contradict documented ones.
Certainly they can't believe that they look clever by publishing simple name-calling and invective, especially when it's based on patent untruth.
Maybe they think they accomplish something through sheer annoyance. I wouldn't think it wins them any friends, but maybe they're just trying to piss people off. I guess for people like them, that's a success.
It must be a sad, lonely way to live to have one's only feeling of accomplishment come from creating petty annoyance. No wonder Braden's health suffers when he blogs.
Wow Maria, the disingenuous Eric Boehlert and Media Matters. Malkin and Alterman--Together Again: Lt. Col. Bateman's post on Media Matters ' Altercation--disputing Associated Press in the ongoing controversy over the alleged burning of six Sunnis in Baghdad--seems quite damning. Eric Boehlert's response--'Hey, I'm not defending the AP on this, just attacking the AP's attackers!'--seems quite weak. And Boehlert, while blasting "unhinged" warbloggers, comes unhinged himself, I think, when in his original, near interminable article he writes:
I don't think it's out of bounds to suggest that warbloggers want journalists to venture into exceedingly dangerous sections of Iraq because warbloggers want journalists to get killed.
I guess I can respond with World Net Daily or Powerline links?
So, how did Boehlert try to rebut the point I made? He cited a number of factual disputes that have been raised in connection with points made by the Swift Boat Vets. But every single one of the factual controversies noted by Boehlert relates, exactly as I wrote, to the subject of Kerry's medals. He never questions the accuracy of any of the Vets' seven other ads. Thus, Boehlert's post, far from rebutting my point, actually reinforces it. Unbelievable.
These are important questions that require immediate attention. Since the Vietnam era, the myth of soldiers being spat at, which, while having been discredited, has been invoked repeatedly to tar anti-war protesters.
Good Lord! I read the Spitting stuff at your links and it's SOOOOOOOOOO Wingnutty because there's page after page and part after part and yet, not one freaking documented contemporary newspaper report on spitting on returning servicemen.
The closest they get is a report of a guy spitting on Guardsmen at a demo -- but AGAIN, NO CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER REPORTS ON SPITTING ON RETURNING VIETNAM VETS.
SS: The answer to your question is that they are so insane on their own dogma that they can't recognize reality or objective facts anymore OR they do it to waste our time. HTTT just wasted a real chunk of mine.
The closest they get is a report of a guy spitting on Guardsmen at a demo -- but AGAIN, NO CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER REPORTS ON SPITTING ON RETURNING VIETNAM VETS. Maybe you should update that talking point, Yes I know that the first is a TV news report and that author of the piece trying to discount the stories provided by the vets. Delmar Pickett Jr. Stands by His Spit Story In the Dec. 27, 1971, CBS News segment, Pickett tells reporter Dean, "Man, I got into the airport and these two dudes walked up—one of them spit at me." ... In a June 2, 1971, Washington Post article, Minarik says that hours after his Dec. 10, 1968, discharge from the Army, two people spat on him as he walked an Oakland, Calif., street. Both are actually civilians when the spitting happens, but both are in uniform. Both take place in locations where soldiers are commonly encountered
The story was that many many vets were routinely spat on upon their return from Vietnam. Finding one or two vets with stories is not a debunking of the debunking.
Lembcke even points out in his book that it would be impossible to find that NO spitting occurred. He even find evidence of spitting - but that was on anti-war protesters by the wars defenders. Considering the fact that a large chunk of the anti-war movement was made up of Vietnam vets, it's possible that Vietnam vets were spat upon, only by defenders of the war.
His research supports the position that wide-spread spitting is what didn't occur.
Shitrock - what's the matter? You PO'd the liberal lovefest on blogs like this gets interupted?
In a perfect liberal world, maybe it's something like this...
Lib1: "Hey bro, what's happenin'? Remember, Bush lied-people died."
Lib2: "Right back at ya. Hey, what's up with the French?! They rejected that socialist babe for a friggin' conservative!"
Lib1: "Horrible! And we want to pattern America after them. Well, them and Cuba, of course."
Lib2: "Didja see the forest fires? Global warming is peaking! I figure we got oh, maybe 10 years till mankind ends."
Lib1: "Right on! If only Gore was in, HE'D save the world!"
Lib2: "Hey, I gotta run - Olbermann's on. Man, he ROCKS!"
Lib1: "Yeah, I'm late for my Anarchy Now meeting. We're planning the next march on Washington. We don't have the agenda yet - there's so much to protest these days. Just like my parents, Moon-Beam and Lady Love, used to in the 60's. With any luck we'll break 500 people on the latest protest march."
The story was that many many vets were routinely spat on upon their return from Vietnam. Finding one or two vets with stories is not a debunking of the debunking. You, like Lembcke are moving the goalposts.
Newsweek Throws the Spitter But Lembcke—a Vietnam vet himself—cites his own research and that of other academics to assert that he has never uncovered a single news story documenting such an incident. ... In researching the book[Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam], Lembcke found no news accounts or even claims from the late 1960s or early 1970s of vets getting spat at. He did, however, uncover ample news stories about anti-war protesters receiving the saliva shower from anti-anti-war types.
Considering the fact that a large chunk of the anti-war movement was made up of Vietnam vets. Or people claiming to be Vietnam vets. Who Is Al Hubbard? According to Frank Jordan, the Washington Bureau Chief of NBC News, NBC got a tip that Al Hubbard hadn't been an Air Force captain, but instead an Air Force sergeant. NBC reached Hubbard at a Washington hotel that night, asked Hubbard about the tip, and got a confession that, indeed, he had been lying about his rank. ... Alfred H. Hubbard entered the Air Force in October 1952, re-enlisted twice and was honorably discharged in October 1966, when his enlistment expired. At the time of his discharge he was an instructor flight engineer on C-123 aircraft with the 7th Air Transport Squadron, McCord Air Force Base, Tacoma, Washington. There is no record of any service in Vietnam, but since he was an air crew member he could have been in Vietnam for brief periods during cargo loading, unloading operations or for crew rest purposes. His highest grade held was Staff Sergeant E-5."
Joseph Ellis Ellis became the subject of controversy in 2001 when the Boston Globe revealed (in an article published on June 18, 2001) that he had exaggerated his involvement in the Vietnam War (he served in uniform in America but did not go to Vietnam as he had claimed to students and to the media).
Welcome back, XRanger. I guess some of your wounds are healing from your recent political defeats. Three things about your comment:
1) Huh? You seem even less coherent than usual. Suggestion: Might wanna reduce the oxycontin intake for an hour or two before you post.
2) Suggestion: Learn to spell. You're embarrassing yourself. Again. And this time, not just with your illogic.
3) Observation: It's another post that a conservative will consider pertinent, even hilarious. Bunches of insults, lots of assertions, no links, no facts, no interest.
Have a great weekend, X. Maybe even one you'll remember on Monday.
How many sad pathetic Quinn listening guys who couldn't get laid by even shemale Ann Coulter are lurking here now?
You losers need to take some Prozac instead of hillbilly heroin and attempt nice interactions with other people.
Ever notice how the people who scream the loudest about keeping women from having reproductive freedom are guys (and women like Ann and Laura Ingraham) who no one wants to have sex with?
Is that why you have so much time to spew your talking points and conspiracy theories? Must suck to have to date your right hand all of the time.
The problem is that most of the big Wingnut blogs either don't allow comments or ruthlessly delete comments for content so all these little boys have no where to go but to Liberal blogs to talk. They can't build any kind of commenting skills among their own kind, so they come her and SPEW.
Also, being the type of people who get all hot and wet and cream their jeans when it comes to having a Big Daddy Authoritarian Type Leader, they also are the type who feel the need to proselytize to the rest of us. So they feel the overwhelming need to come to places like this blog to preach. But, again, they've got no people skills and they've got no real debating skills (reality-based, objective facts), so again, all they can do is name call and spew BS and then they are surprised when they aren't exactly welcomed with open arms.
You just have to feel sorry for them like you would some guy with a sandwich-board sign screaming on the corner about the end of the world. But you have to realize that it's pretty much as useless to try to engage most of them in conversation as it is with the nut on the corner downtown.
XRanger, I'm sincerely a little worried about you. Yesterday, I was just giving you back some of what you were giving me, but your latest post seems unusually bitter, even for an angry white conservative.
OK, I'm a dope. So what? Dopes won't throw you in jail without access to a lawyer. Dopes won't double your children's taxes to fight a war whose only purpose is to enrich Dick Cheney. Some day, if you wise up, you'll be a dope, too.
The problem is that most of the big Wingnut blogs either don't allow comments or ruthlessly delete comments for content so all these little boys have no where to go but to Liberal blogs to talk. For a example of the moonbat left deleting comments, I suggest you go to pandagon.net The lovely Amanda Marcotte (John Edwards ex-campaign blogmaster) deletes comments that point out how wrong she was on the Duke Lacrosse rape hoax.
It’s all good—the Duke case is simply making my banned list longer. People with an anti-woman/racist ax to grind are going to gloat about this as if it meant anything that a well-financed defense case managed to blow through a shoddy prosecution, but they can do it somewhere else.
I love the libs fighting back: oh, I bet you can't get laid, or, you're creaming your jeans diatribes. Childish.
Shitrock, you've lost all ability to debate with anyone who isn't a kook like you. Sad, really.
Actually, I like to troll in the depths of left wing blogs to expose the idiocy: if you can't spew the party's line, and if you had to actually think on your feet to defend your postions, you have nary a clue.
27 comments:
Uh-oh! First guest Jon Delano had to cut out early so I've called in to help out.
I read about this blog in the City Paper and then heard one of you on the radio today, so I thought I would stop by leave a note. The radio engagement seems to be going well so far.
Thanks!
Why not call into the radio show too?
You did a terrific job on air. Fun show to listen to today. Great blog too!
I heard David DeAngelo talking on the Lynn Cullen show about the Swiftvet's accusations about John Kerry being "out of left field" .
Does he care to provide some examples?
Such as Kerry's Chrismas in Cambodia quote?
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Or his WinterSoldier Testimony
"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."
That's right, John Kerry Heinz is one of our greatest war heros in history. Who else could spend 4 months in vietnam and receive 3 purple hearts, a bronze and silver star.
All that and not a scratch to show for it.
Move over Audy Murphy, there's a real hero coming aboard.
Here's my letter to the Post-Gazette which was published in September of 2004 that touches on the charges made by the Swiftboaters.
(scroll down to the 4th letter)
Read your letter.
On his side, Kerry has official military records, the testimony of the men on his boat and the testimony of some of the men on other boats. On the other side, there is the testimony of men not on his boat, claims by men not even in the area at the time and flip-flops by some of these men on what they said as recently as 10 years ago.
It contains no specifics. That and the repeating of the talking point that the Swiftvets are a Karl Rove engineered smear on Kerry.
Can you take the Beldar challenge
"Can you identify even one specific and material SwiftVets allegation that you believe to have been fully "debunked" or fully proven to be "unsubstantiated"?
"
I am sure this will be easy for you as the debunking of the Swiftvets is seared -- seared in your memory.
The left wing moonbats continually say that the Swift Boat Heros allegations were totally debunked; but when you ask them for one example, they come up mute. Then they call Bush AWOL and you a Nazi and walk away.
For an example of debunking see here and here (also gets into the Cambodia story).
GREAT SHOW!!
Has this question occurred to anyone else: Why do the Wignuttians bother to do what they do here?
Certainly they can't think they will change anyone's mind by making undocumented claims that contradict documented ones.
Certainly they can't believe that they look clever by publishing simple name-calling and invective, especially when it's based on patent untruth.
Maybe they think they accomplish something through sheer annoyance. I wouldn't think it wins them any friends, but maybe they're just trying to piss people off. I guess for people like them, that's a success.
It must be a sad, lonely way to live to have one's only feeling of accomplishment come from creating petty annoyance. No wonder Braden's health suffers when he blogs.
Wow Maria, the disingenuous Eric Boehlert and Media Matters.
Malkin and Alterman--Together Again: Lt. Col. Bateman's post on Media Matters ' Altercation--disputing Associated Press in the ongoing controversy over the alleged burning of six Sunnis in Baghdad--seems quite damning. Eric Boehlert's response--'Hey, I'm not defending the AP on this, just attacking the AP's attackers!'--seems quite weak. And Boehlert, while blasting "unhinged" warbloggers, comes unhinged himself, I think, when in his original, near interminable article he writes:
I don't think it's out of bounds to suggest that warbloggers want journalists to venture into exceedingly dangerous sections of Iraq because warbloggers want journalists to get killed.
I guess I can respond with World Net Daily or Powerline links?
As for the debunking: Ineffective, Even For A Liberal
So, how did Boehlert try to rebut the point I made? He cited a number of factual disputes that have been raised in connection with points made by the Swift Boat Vets. But every single one of the factual controversies noted by Boehlert relates, exactly as I wrote, to the subject of Kerry's medals. He never questions the accuracy of any of the Vets' seven other ads. Thus, Boehlert's post, far from rebutting my point, actually reinforces it. Unbelievable.
Of course I trust Media Matters about Vietnam.
These are important questions that require immediate attention. Since the Vietnam era, the myth of soldiers being spat at, which, while having been discredited, has been invoked repeatedly to tar anti-war protesters.
Many 1967-72 Spitting Incidents Are Documented in the Press
Good Lord! I read the Spitting stuff at your links and it's SOOOOOOOOOO Wingnutty because there's page after page and part after part and yet, not one freaking documented contemporary newspaper report on spitting on returning servicemen.
The closest they get is a report of a guy spitting on Guardsmen at a demo -- but AGAIN, NO CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER REPORTS ON SPITTING ON RETURNING VIETNAM VETS.
SS: The answer to your question is that they are so insane on their own dogma that they can't recognize reality or objective facts anymore OR they do it to waste our time. HTTT just wasted a real chunk of mine.
The closest they get is a report of a guy spitting on Guardsmen at a demo -- but AGAIN, NO CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER REPORTS ON SPITTING ON RETURNING VIETNAM VETS.
Maybe you should update that talking point, Yes I know that the first is a TV news report and that author of the piece trying to discount the stories provided by the vets.
Delmar Pickett Jr. Stands by His Spit Story
In the Dec. 27, 1971, CBS News segment, Pickett tells reporter Dean, "Man, I got into the airport and these two dudes walked up—one of them spit at me."
...
In a June 2, 1971, Washington Post article, Minarik says that hours after his Dec. 10, 1968, discharge from the Army, two people spat on him as he walked an Oakland, Calif., street. Both are actually civilians when the spitting happens, but both are in uniform. Both take place in locations where soldiers are commonly encountered
My god - the Vietnam spitting story??
The story was that many many vets were routinely spat on upon their return from Vietnam. Finding one or two vets with stories is not a debunking of the debunking.
Lembcke even points out in his book that it would be impossible to find that NO spitting occurred. He even find evidence of spitting - but that was on anti-war protesters by the wars defenders. Considering the fact that a large chunk of the anti-war movement was made up of Vietnam vets, it's possible that Vietnam vets were spat upon, only by defenders of the war.
His research supports the position that wide-spread spitting is what didn't occur.
Shitrock - what's the matter? You PO'd the liberal lovefest on blogs like this gets interupted?
In a perfect liberal world, maybe it's something like this...
Lib1: "Hey bro, what's happenin'? Remember, Bush lied-people died."
Lib2: "Right back at ya. Hey, what's up with the French?! They rejected that socialist babe for a friggin' conservative!"
Lib1: "Horrible! And we want to pattern America after them. Well, them and Cuba, of course."
Lib2: "Didja see the forest fires? Global warming is peaking! I figure we got oh, maybe 10 years till mankind ends."
Lib1: "Right on! If only Gore was in, HE'D save the world!"
Lib2: "Hey, I gotta run - Olbermann's on. Man, he ROCKS!"
Lib1: "Yeah, I'm late for my Anarchy Now meeting. We're planning the next march on Washington. We don't have the agenda yet - there's so much to protest these days. Just like my parents, Moon-Beam and Lady Love, used to in the 60's. With any luck we'll break 500 people on the latest protest march."
Or something like that...
The story was that many many vets were routinely spat on upon their return from Vietnam. Finding one or two vets with stories is not a debunking of the debunking.
You, like Lembcke are moving the goalposts.
Newsweek Throws the Spitter
But Lembcke—a Vietnam vet himself—cites his own research and that of other academics to assert that he has never uncovered a single news story documenting such an incident.
...
In researching the book[Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam], Lembcke found no news accounts or even claims from the late 1960s or early 1970s of vets getting spat at. He did, however, uncover ample news stories about anti-war protesters receiving the saliva shower from anti-anti-war types.
Considering the fact that a large chunk of the anti-war movement was made up of Vietnam vets.
Or people claiming to be Vietnam vets.
Who Is Al Hubbard?
According to Frank Jordan, the Washington Bureau Chief of NBC News, NBC got a tip that Al Hubbard hadn't been an Air Force captain, but instead an Air Force sergeant. NBC reached Hubbard at a Washington hotel that night, asked Hubbard about the tip, and got a confession that, indeed, he had been lying about his rank.
...
Alfred H. Hubbard entered the Air Force in October 1952, re-enlisted twice and was honorably discharged in October 1966, when his enlistment expired. At the time of his discharge he was an instructor flight engineer on C-123 aircraft with the 7th Air Transport Squadron, McCord Air Force Base, Tacoma, Washington. There is no record of any service in Vietnam, but since he was an air crew member he could have been in Vietnam for brief periods during cargo loading, unloading operations or for crew rest purposes. His highest grade held was Staff Sergeant E-5."
Joseph Ellis
Ellis became the subject of controversy in 2001 when the Boston Globe revealed (in an article published on June 18, 2001) that he had exaggerated his involvement in the Vietnam War (he served in uniform in America but did not go to Vietnam as he had claimed to students and to the media).
The book Stolen Valor has more examples.
Welcome back, XRanger. I guess some of your wounds are healing from your recent political defeats. Three things about your comment:
1) Huh? You seem even less coherent than usual. Suggestion: Might wanna reduce the oxycontin intake for an hour or two before you post.
2) Suggestion: Learn to spell. You're embarrassing yourself. Again. And this time, not just with your illogic.
3) Observation: It's another post that a conservative will consider pertinent, even hilarious. Bunches of insults, lots of assertions, no links, no facts, no interest.
Have a great weekend, X. Maybe even one you'll remember on Monday.
Shitrock, you're a dope: I was writing in American slang.
If you had ANY sense of security in your side's positions, you would have found that good-natured fun.
Methinks thou dost protest too much. Even in jest, you realize how moronic the liberal poaition is these days.
How many sad pathetic Quinn listening guys who couldn't get laid by even shemale Ann Coulter are lurking here now?
You losers need to take some Prozac instead of hillbilly heroin and attempt nice interactions with other people.
Ever notice how the people who scream the loudest about keeping women from having reproductive freedom are guys (and women like Ann and Laura Ingraham) who no one wants to have sex with?
Is that why you have so much time to spew your talking points and conspiracy theories? Must suck to have to date your right hand all of the time.
I'd rather be a liberal than like any of you.
The problem is that most of the big Wingnut blogs either don't allow comments or ruthlessly delete comments for content so all these little boys have no where to go but to Liberal blogs to talk. They can't build any kind of commenting skills among their own kind, so they come her and SPEW.
Also, being the type of people who get all hot and wet and cream their jeans when it comes to having a Big Daddy Authoritarian Type Leader, they also are the type who feel the need to proselytize to the rest of us. So they feel the overwhelming need to come to places like this blog to preach. But, again, they've got no people skills and they've got no real debating skills (reality-based, objective facts), so again, all they can do is name call and spew BS and then they are surprised when they aren't exactly welcomed with open arms.
You just have to feel sorry for them like you would some guy with a sandwich-board sign screaming on the corner about the end of the world. But you have to realize that it's pretty much as useless to try to engage most of them in conversation as it is with the nut on the corner downtown.
XRanger, I'm sincerely a little worried about you. Yesterday, I was just giving you back some of what you were giving me, but your latest post seems unusually bitter, even for an angry white conservative.
OK, I'm a dope. So what? Dopes won't throw you in jail without access to a lawyer. Dopes won't double your children's taxes to fight a war whose only purpose is to enrich Dick Cheney. Some day, if you wise up, you'll be a dope, too.
The problem is that most of the big Wingnut blogs either don't allow comments or ruthlessly delete comments for content so all these little boys have no where to go but to Liberal blogs to talk.
For a example of the moonbat left deleting comments, I suggest you go to pandagon.net
The lovely Amanda Marcotte (John Edwards ex-campaign blogmaster) deletes comments that point out how wrong she was on the Duke Lacrosse rape hoax.
Amanda Marcotte Apr 12th, 2007 at 11:25 am
It’s all good—the Duke case is simply making my banned list longer. People with an anti-woman/racist ax to grind are going to gloat about this as if it meant anything that a well-financed defense case managed to blow through a shoddy prosecution, but they can do it somewhere else.
I love the libs fighting back: oh, I bet you can't get laid, or, you're creaming your jeans diatribes. Childish.
Shitrock, you've lost all ability to debate with anyone who isn't a kook like you. Sad, really.
Actually, I like to troll in the depths of left wing blogs to expose the idiocy: if you can't spew the party's line, and if you had to actually think on your feet to defend your postions, you have nary a clue.
Get help, X. Seriously.
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