What Fresh Hell Is This?

December 21, 2007

Mitt Romney Lies

In 2000 we were peppered with tall tales of Vice-President Al Gore's tall tales.

And he got pounded for (at best) "stretching the truth" when it was said he claimed to have invented the Internet claimed to have been the model for Oliver Barrett in the novel Love Story.

Too bad he never claimed to have "invented" the Internet, only claimed to have pushed for it early on in Congress (he could have been a little clearer, though). And in fact he was the model (actually one of two models) for Oliver Barrett. And who said so? Eric Segal, the author of the novel.

I wonder, now, what the main stream media will make of a Republican who actually did stretch the truth (i.e. LIE)?

I turn now to Governor Mitt Romney's current lie: that he "saw" his father march with the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King.

The story starts up in Boston (or BAH-sten, as the locals up-ere would say):

In the most-watched speech of his political career, speaking on “Faith in America” at College Station, Texas, earlier this month, Mitt Romney evoked the strongest of all symbolic claims to civil-rights credentials: “I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

He has repeated the claim several times recently, most prominently to Tim Russert on Meet the Press . But, while the late George W. Romney, a four-term governor of Michigan, can lay claim to a strong record on civil rights, the Phoenix can find no evidence that the senior Romney actually marched with King, nor anything in the public record suggesting that he ever claimed to do so.

Nor did Mitt Romney ever previously claim that this took place, until long after his father passed away in 1995 — not even when defending accusations of the Mormon church’s discriminatory past during his 1994 Senate campaign.

What discriminatory past? I think that has to be addressed first. Here's Lawrence O'Donnell from the HuffingtonPost:

The pundits had no idea how deliberately misleading Romney's speech was. They loved the bit about Romney's father marching with Martin Luther King. None of them knew that if at the end of the march with George Romney, Martin Luther King was so taken with Mormonism that he wanted to convert and become a Mormon priest, George Romney would have had to tell him that they don't allow black priests. George Romney might also have had to explain to the Reverend King that Mormons believe black people have black skin because they turned away from God.

I give you the words of the holy Book of Mormon:

"And I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark and loathsome and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

Brigham Young, the most revered president of the Mormon Church, who marched his people all the way to the Utah territory because he so vehemently hated the laws of the United States, taught that sex with black people would kill white people. Instantly.

Brigham Young:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

O'Donnell goes on:
It took the Mormons ten years after Martin Luther King was killed--ten years--to decide to allow black men to be priests.
The faith of Romney's fathers.

Anyway, back to Romney seeing his father march with Martin Luther King. This is what he said to Russert:
I'm very proud of my faith, and it's the faith of my fathers, and I certainly believe that it is a, a faith--well, it's true and I love my faith. And I'm not going to distance myself in any way from my faith. But you can see what I believed and what my family believed by looking at, at our lives. My dad marched with Martin Luther King. [emphasis in original]
In all fairness, I should add that Romney does say that he was anxious to see a change in his church and that he wept when he heard that his church was changing in regards to race. Didn't say it was ten years later, though.

So two statements: "I saw my father march with Dr Martin Luther King." and "My dad marched with Martin Luther King."

Now are those statements true? Turns out that's a NO. Not only is there no evidence to show that Romney's father, George Romney - who had a solid reputation, strong record for Civil Rights, never marched with King.

When initially asked, the campaign said the march occurred in Grosse Point, Michigan. Too bad there was never a march by Dr. King in Grosse Point. And Romney never marched their either. King did deliver a speech at Grosse Point High school, on March 14 1968.

If that was the event, then Mitt Romney could not have seen it, as he was doing missionary work in Europe for his church.

So, no march attended by both King and the elder Romney. And Romney himself was away for 2 1/2 years (from the last half of 1966 to the end of 1968 - geez, he missed all the good stuff!).

The campaign, of course, is back-pedalling furiously:
"He was speaking figuratively, not literally," Eric Fehrnstrom, spokesman for the Romney campaign, said of the candidate.

And then there's this update at the Phoenix:

A spokesperson for Mitt Romney now tells the Phoenix that George W. Romney and Martin Luther King Jr. marched together in June, 1963 -- although possibly not on the same day or in the same city.

Romney, according to one piece of written source material provided by the campaign, made a “surprise” appearance at a small march in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, in late June -- several days after King led a much larger march in Detroit.

Romney spokesperson Eric Fehrnstrom suggests that these two were part of the same “series” of events, co-sponsored by King and the NAACP, and is thus consistent with Romney’s claim that “I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.”

“The record is convincing and clear – George Romney marched with Martin Luther King and other civil rights demonstrators,” Fehrnstrom wrote in an email.

Fehrnstrom had originally told the Phoenix that the two men marched together in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, either in June 1963 or March 1968, a claim the Phoenix called into question earlier today. An additional source, William LeFevre of the Reuther Library at Wayne State University, who is in charge of the papers of the Grosse Pointe Civil Liberties Association, has since confirmed to the Phoenix that George Romney was not at the 1968 event, and that King was not at the 1963 event.
Fehrnstrom now says that the event in question was King’s “Freedom March” in Detroit on June 23, 1963.

He provides one reference, a 1972 book about Detroit, which mentions that Michigan’s then-governor George Romney “was among the prominent whites marching with Reverend King” in the Freedom March (which the book erroneously says took place on July 23).

However, numerous contemporaneous and historical accounts say that Romney did not participate in the Detroit Freedom March, because it was held on the Sabbath. The New York Times, for example, wrote the next day that “Gov. George Romney, who is Mormon and does not make public appearances on Sundays, issued a special proclamation.”

So I guess it depends on the meaning of "saw" is.


"Fair and Balanced" Dave said...


Haven't you learned by now, IOKIYAR?

The so-called "liberal" media gave Ronald Reagan a free pass for his numerous lies. Until George W. Bush's popularity sank to abyssmal levels the press let him slide on his numerous lies (and they are still letting him slide on his trashing of the Constitution). So I see no reason whatsoever why the corporate stooges in the MSM won't give Willard Romney a pass.

It certainly didn't make the national news last night. I was watching the NBC Evening News and didn't hear a peep about this from the vacuous Brian Williams. Williams did, however, slide into Bill O'Reilly territory by devoting a 5 minutes to a segment the "War on Christmas" (and yes he used that term).

(Between Williams, Russert, Tucker Carlson, and the Clinton underwear drawer obsessed Chris Matthews, NBC's news division is a major embarrasment. Were it not for Keith Olbermann, NBC/MSNBC would be as bad as Faux News).

Anonymous said...

Despite rampant reports around the internet saying otherwise, Governor George Romney of Michigan did March with Martin Luther King Jr. His record on Civil Rights is impeccable. Here’s the facts:


FACT: In The Summer Of 1963, Governor Romney Participated In Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Freedom Marches” In Grosse Pointe, Michigan.

In 1963, George Romney Gave The Keynote Address At The Conference That Sparked The Martin Luther King “Freedom Marches” In Detroit. “The establishment of these human relations groups came in the wake of several major events (besides the embarrassing racist practices of such suburbs as Dearborn), which took place in 1963 and helped galvanize interracial support and cooperation for integrated housing. The first event was the Metropolitan Conference on Open Occupancy held in Detroit in January 1963. The second event was the Martin Luther King ‘Freedom’ March in June of the same year, the spinoffs of which were several Detroit NAACP-sponsored interracial marches into Detroit suburbs to dramatize the need for black housing. … Governor George Romney gave the keynote speech at this conference, in which he pledged to use the power of the state to achieve housing equality in Michigan.” (Joe T. Darden, Detroit, Race And Uneven Development, 1987, p. 132)

Governor Romney Marched In July 1963 In An NAACP-Sponsored March Through Grosse Pointe. “The next couple of NAACP marches into the suburbs were more pleasant. Both Grosse Pointe and Royal Oak Township welcomed the interracial marchers. Close to 500 black and white marchers, including many Grosse Pointers, marched in ‘the Pointes’ that July. Governor George Romney made a surprise appearance in his shirt sleeves and joined the parade leaders.” (Joe T. Darden, Detroit, Race And Uneven Development, 1987, p. 132)

Detroit Free Press: “With Gov. Romney a surprise arrival and marching in the front row, more than 500 Negroes and whites staged a peaceful anti-discrimination parade up Grosse Pointe’s Kercheval Avenue Saturday. … ‘the elimination of human inequalities and injustices is our urgent and critical domestic problem,’ the governor said. … [Detroit NAACP President Edward M.] Turner told reporters, ‘I think it is very significant that Governor Romney is here. We are very surprised.’ Romney said, ‘If they want me to lead the parade, I’ll be glad to.’” (”Romney Joins Protest March Of 500 In Grosse Pointe,” Detroit Free Press, 6/29/63)
In Their 1967 Book, Stephen Hess And David Broder Wrote That George Romney “Marched With Martin Luther King Through The Exclusive Grosse Point Suburb Of Detroit.” “He has marched with Martin Luther King through the exclusive Grosse Pointe suburb of Detroit and he is on record in support of full-coverage Federal open-housing legislation.” (Stephen Hess And David Broder, The Republican Establishment: The Present And Future Of The G.O.P., 1967, p. 107)
FACT: As Governor Of Michigan, George Romney Fought For Civil Rights And Marched In Support Of Martin Luther King Jr.

George Romney Was A Strong Proponent Of Civil Rights And Created Michigan’s First Civil Rights Commission. “The governor’s record was one of supporting civil rights. He helped create the state’s first civil rights commission and marched at the head of a protest parade in Detroit days after violence against civil rights marchers in Selma, Ala., in 1965.” (Todd Sprangler, “Romney Fields Questions On King,” Detroit Free Press, 12/20/07)

In 1967, George Romney Was Praised At A National Civil Rights Rally For His Leadership. “Michigan Gov. George Romney walked into a Negro Civil Rights rally in the heart of Atlanta to the chants of ‘We Want Romney’ and to hear protests from Negroes about city schools. ‘They had invited me to come and I was interested in hearing things that would give me an insight into Atlanta,’ the Michigan Republican said. Led by Hosea Williams, a top aide to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the all-Negro rally broke into shouts and song when Romney arrived. ‘We’re tired of Lyndon Baines Johnson,’ Williams said from a pulpit in the Flipper Temple AME Church as Romney sat in a front row pew. ‘Johnson is sending black boys to Vietnam to die for a freedom that never existed,’ Williams said. Pointing to Romney, Williams brought the crowd of 200 to its feet when he said, ‘He may be the fella with a little backbone.’ Williams said Romney could be ‘the next President if he acts right.’ The potential GOP presidential nominee left the rally before it ended.” (”Romney Praised At Civil Rights Rally In Atlanta,” The Chicago Defender, 9/30/67)

Photograph: “Dr. Martin Luther King speaking to graduate student Laura L. Leichliter (center) and Michigan’s First Lady Mrs. Lenore Romney in February 1965.” (Instructional Media Center Collection At Michigan State University Archives And Historical Collections)

George Romney Fought Discrimination In Housing. “President Nixon tapped then Governor of Michigan, George Romney, for the post of Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. While serving as Governor, Secretary Romney had successfully campaigned for ratification of a state constitutional provision that prohibited discrimination in housing.” (U.S. Department Of Housing And Urban Development Official Web Site, www.hud.gov, Accessed 12/19/07)

Photograph: “More than 100 angry white protesters balked at efforts by then-Housing Secretary George Romney, in car, to open their new neighborhoods to blacks.” (Gordon Trowbridge and Oralandar Brand-Williams, “A Policy Of Exclusion,” Detroit News, 1/14/02)

FACT: In 1965, George Romney Led A March In Michigan To Protest Selma.

In 1965, George Romney Led A Protest Parade Of Some 10,000 People In Detroit. “Rarely has public opinion reacted so spontaneously and with such fury. In Detroit, Mayor Jerome Cavanaugh and Michigan’s Governor George Romney led a protest parade of 10,000 people.” (”Civil Rights – The Central Point,” Time Magazine, www.time.com, 10/5/83)

The Days Of Martin Luther King, Jr.: “In Detroit, Governor George Romney and Mayor Jerome Cavanaugh called for a march to protest what had happened in Selma.” (Jim Bishop, The Days Of Martin Luther King, Jr., 1971, p. 385)
FACT: Martin Luther King Jr. “Spoke Positively” About The Possible Presidential Candidacy Of George Romney.

In His Pulitzer-Prize Winning Biography Of Dr. King, David Garrow Notes That King “Spoke Positively” About The Possible Presidential Candidacy Of George Romney. “King spoke positively about the possible candidacies of republicans George Romney, Charles Percy, and Nelson Rockefeller. He also stressed the need for greater Afro-American unity, including reaching out to segments of the black community that were not committed to nonviolence.” (David J. Garrow, Bearing the Cross: Martin Luther King, Jr., and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, 2006, p. 575)

FACT: George Romney Attended King’s Funeral In 1968.

George Romney Attended King’s Funeral In 1968. “Vice President Hubert Humphrey represented the White House. Senator and Mrs. Robert F. Kennedy; Mrs. John F. Kennedy; Governor and Mrs. Nelson Rockefeller of New York; the mayor of New York City, John V Lindsay; and Michigan’s governor, George Romney, were present.” (Octavia Vivian, Coretta: The Story of Coretta Scott King, 2006, p. 99)

George Romney Joined Other Prominent Americans In Attending King’s Funeral. “Inside was the greatest galaxy of prominent national figures there had ever been in Atlanta at one time: Robert Kennedy, George Romney, Mayor Carl Stokes of Cleveland, Nixon, Rockefeller, Harry Belafonte, and an endless array of others equally as famous. Coretta Scott King, sitting with her family front and center in front of the casket, looked lovely and courageous and dignified in a black mourning veil.” (Franklin Miller Garrett, Atlanta and Environs: A Chronicle of Its People and Events, 1987, p. 517)
After King’s Assassination, George Romney Declared An Official Period Of Mourning, Ordered All Flags To Be Flown At Half Staff And Said King’s Death Was “A Great National Tragedy.” “On April 4, 1968, Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated as he stood on a motel balcony in Memphis, Tenn., where he had gone to lead a civil rights march. The following day, Michigan Gov. George Romney declared an official period of mourning for King. The period extended through King’s funeral. Romney ordered all flags on public buildings to be flown at half staff and asked that the same be done on private buildings. Gov. Romney, in an official statement, said: “The assassination of Martin Luther King is a great national tragedy. At a time when we need aggressive nonviolent leadership to peacefully achieve equal rights, equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for all, his leadership will be grievously missed.” (”Rearview Mirror: Detroit Reacts To King’s Assassination,” The Detroit News, 4/4/07)

Schmuck Shitrock said...

What Dave said, but also...

From the point of view of another "fair and balanced" objective observer (your humble servant, moi)...one who thinks BOTH Dems and Reps are mostly disreputable, cynical crooks, and one who thinks that myrmidons of ANY religion employ some serious mental flexibility:

There probably hasn't been a American campaign this rich in debate over which candidate worships The True God since the Adams pere campaign took Jefferson to task for being an atheist.

(Of course, Jefferson wasn't any more an atheist than he was a Christian. Neither was Adams, for that matter. Damn, there I go pretending to know history again. Or is it twisting facts?)

But I digress. My point is that any "debate" about religious legitimacy is necessarily between folks of faith, who are by definition more than willing to ignore facts in favor of A Greater Truth -- that is, A Truth that may completely contradict known facts. This is very definition of faith.

So when Romney says he saw his Dad marching with King, he's not exactly lying. He's just expressing a Truth that's false, see? (He has already admitted that it was an example of untrue Truthiness. "It's a figure of speech.") It's similar to Gonzales saying he "can't recall ever remembering" talking to aides about firing attorneys so they can't prosecute Republicans, it's true for him in some lying sort of way. Like when Dubya first promises to fire anyone who outted Plame, then changes it to promise he'll fire anyone who committed a crime in the Plame affair, then commutes the sentence of the guy who was convicted of obstructing the investigation, he's not really lying. He's just viewing the situation through the filter of Ideological Belief.

Sure, they're still evil, but in the most virtuous way.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Anon 9:50 -- So was Romney lying when he said he saw his Dad marching with King, or was he lying when he said it was just a "figure of speech?"

Truth becomes such a slippery thing when it has been lubricated with Belief, is it not?

xranger said...

That's OK, Hillary claimed years ago she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary.


Heir to the Throne said...

As to the "Al Gore invented the Internet debunking" on Snopes, Snopes does have a left-wing bias and will always give the benefit of a doubt to democrats.

My Guy Was Misquoted, Yours Was Paraphrased

Anonymous said...

There's a joke in there somewhere about Bill 'climbing', X, but damned if I know how to set it up well. Still, hooray for the lowest common denomiator!

- Shawn

Schmuck Shitrock said...

What Reagan actually said: "I think, too, that we've got to recognize that where the preservation of a natural resource like the redwoods is concerned, that there is a common sense limit. I mean, if you've looked at a hundred thousand acres or so of trees -- you know, a tree is a tree, how many more do you need to look at?"

Now Mein Heir, are you claiming that "If you've seen one redwood you've seen them all" is a misleading paraphrase? I think not.

OTOH, Gore said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth..."

Are you also claiming that the paraphrase "I invented the internet" is NOT misleading?

More right-wing Truthiness.

EdHeath said...

Apparently you can search the Detroit Free Press. There was a recent article http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200771220047
That says George Romney did not march with Dr King in Grosse Pointe. I think no one would dispute the rest of Anon 9:50's comment, George Romney was apparently an admirable advocate for civil rights. Would Mitt be?

Anonymous said...

Jesus Christ on a bicycle!
What politician DOESN'T lie?
These men and women will say anything to acquire power.

Term limits - civilian government

Anonymous said...

Nice try, Anon.

I don't doubt that you are incorrect in defending the civil rights legacy of George Romney.

But marching "with" someone and marching "in support" of someone are not the same thing.

And clearly Mitt tries to live off of his father's legacy by blatantly lying about this difference. George may very well have marched in "support" of MLK, but his son made it sound as if he was shoulder-to-shoulder with the man, which is clearly not the case, as even you point out.

Participating in MLK's "Freedom Marches" is not marching "with" MLK.

And in consideration of George Romney's admirable political career, which including opposing the Vietnam War, I doubt very much that he would approve of the tactics employed by his son now.

MK said...

Mitt's telling the truth - I saw his dad and Martin Luther King Jr. marching in Boston just last week, after the snowstorm.

Anonymous said...

Are you ignorant, or stupid?

Mitt Romney's father DID march with MLK.

Read below

Shirley Basore, 72, says she was sitting in the hairdresser’s chair in wealthy Grosse Pointe, Mich., back in 1963 when a rumpus started and she discovered that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and her governor, George Romney, were marching for civil rights — right past the window.

With the cape still around her neck, Basore went outside and joined the parade.

“They were hand in hand,” recalled Basore, a former high-school English teacher. “They led the march. We all swung our hands, and they held their hands up above everybody else’s.”

She remembered the late governor as “extremely handsome.”

Until this week, that was just a vivid memory for a sweet retiree who now lives in Pompano Beach, Fla.

But Basore’s memory became important this week when news accounts questioned the recollections of the late Michigan governor’s son, Mitt Romney, the Republican presidential candidate and former Massachusetts governor.

News stories suggested that Romney was exaggerating. It turns out that he may not have attended the Grosse Pointe march, but it certainly happened.

The campaign posted citations quoting one author as writing that “George Romney made a surprise appearance in his shirt sleeves and joined the parade leaders.”

Stephen Hess and David S. Broder also wrote about the march in their 1967 book, “The Republican Establishment: The Present and Future of the G.O.P.”

Basore said she was very angry about how the issue has been covered on cable television.

“This very arrogant guy on TV questioned Mitt Romney, and I marched with them,” Basore said. “I hope that the campaign demands an apology. I want him to publicly apologize to me. That was a personal insult, and an insult to Mitt Romney.”

Basore said she called the campaign, and the campaign supplied her contact information.

Another witness, Ashby Richardson, 64, of Massachusetts gave the campaign a similar account.

“I’m just appalled that the news picks this stuff up and say it didn’t happen,” Richardson, now a data-collection consultant, said by phone. “The press is being disingenuous in terms of reporting what actually happened. I remember it vividly. I was only 15 or 20 feet from where both of them were.”

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Hercule Prioby, a turquoise miner from from Ankara, Turkey, was just out for a stroll that day. "I was just strolling past Golgotha, taking a little exercise like I do every day," said the 35-year-old Kurdish Serb. "I just happened to look up Cavalry [sic] Hill when I saw Al Gore's Dad being crucified right next to Jesus."

For some reason, this historic tidbit has not become an issue in the Gore campaign, but Prioby wasn't done with his story. He said the elder Senator Gore and the Savior of Mankind "were just hanging there, sharing a six-pack of Yingling and making jokes with each other about their childhood hunting trips, and how they got together to force the Massachussets legislature to pass tougher laws against meth labs."

Later in the interview, Prioby further clarified his tale, saying, "The beer was just figurative, but I'll bet it was still tastier than the vinegar they drank later."

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:05 hit the nail on the head. After two terms of Bush, Set new term limits 2 terms for Representatives, 1 term for Senators and President. Also no free health insurance coverage that is currently being paid by taxpayer money. That is socialized medicine. If the general public shouldn't have socialized medicine neither should they. No more pensions. If the majority of Americans shouldn't expect pensions neither should they.I think it's time these hypocrits Repubs and Dems get their feet held to the fire.I know,but at least I can dream.Happy holidays all.

Omnitheist said...

Al Gore is a hysterical alarmist who only wants to promote his image and get his face on television. No offense, but when I listen to the man I either get really angry or want to fall asleep. He is VERY boring and has a tendancy to go on about things people really don't care about.

As for Mitt Romney, I think he's a good leader. Being a former new englander, I saw first hand what a good governor he was.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Sorry to hear that our Beyond-the-Pale Extremist posters only favor those "hysterical alarmists" who hysterically alarm us about their fellow religious fanatics who can kill a few hundred people at a time. OTOH, they mindlessly dislike people who warn us, with the near-unanimous concurrence of scientists all over the world and the Bush Administration itself that we are changing the climate of the Earth at a pace that just might put the entire human race out of business.

At least they are consistent; that is, they are wrong to the point of criminal insanity on both counts. Now that I think about it, the words "criminal insanity" apply to most religious fanatics -- for example, Hitler.

moses said...

Come on Smitty, don't you think its time you gave up the "Hitler was a religious fanatic" platform. Yes, you were right about him being a christian at first, but you yourself even admitted that he turned against religion in the 1940's and stepped up to the plate on your team. As long as you keep ranting about things you've been proved wrong on your debate holds no water.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Geeze, Moosie, don't you ever get tired of being wrong? Maybe if you tried reading from left to right?

What I said was that Hitler turned against Christianity. There is a reason I said that: Because he did. As you of all people should know, that is not the same thing as turning against religious superstition. Get it?

You, along with all religious fanatics LIKE DER OBERFUHRER AND HITLER, need to learn how to relax. Try taking up a hobby other than abusing your fellow countrymen.

moses said...

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

I believe Mr. Hitler says that nazi socialism cannot exist with RELIGION, not only christianity. Although, much like you, he seems to hate christianity the most.

By the way, our debate is not between right and left. Us Israelis don't view the world like you do. This is a debate between right and wrong, with my views being the former.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

You Ghost Worshipers keep bringing out that single quote of Hitler's, but you never provide a link that shows the context of the quote. I wonder why? Could it be that Hitler actually was referring AGAIN to Christianity when he said "religion?" Let's have some corroboration, fellas. We'll wait.

It doesn't matter, really. The whole point of the "Hitler was an atheist" canard is a lie in two ways: First, of course, he was NOT an atheist. Second, even if he had been an atheist, it would prove only that one atheist was as despicable as any number of popes and so-called pious people.

All of this proves my point, that there is absolutely no correlation between religion and ethics, nor between religion and morality. OTOH, there is a huge corelation between religion and intolerance, as your hyper-religious government demonstrates repeatedly by repressing its own citizens. So if you Israelis see politics as a choice between right and wrong, that would make you -- wrong.

Sorry, you lose. You're going to hell unless you wise up and change your ways.

Merry Christmas!

Omnitheist said...


I have provided you with several quotes, not just that one, all of which dispute your claim that Hitler was a "devout Christian". For the final time, Nazi socialism and relgion were mortal enemies. This debate is over. If you would like to rant about it some more, go right ahead. I would prefer to prove you wrong on some other topics instead (ie global warming, terrorism, ethics). By the way, Moses was right by saying that this debate has nothing to do with right or left. It is most definetely a case of right and wrong, which is why I feel the need to come onto this blog and set the facts straight for the poor souls who might stumble upon one of these posts and believe it is true.

Merry Christmas to all

Happy new year, may the world find peace, and may this country put aside its political differences and unite once again.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

I feel the need to come onto this blog and set the facts straight
Well then, please do thatd do that and stop lying about Hitler not being a religious fanatic.

Merry Christmas, Oberfuhrer. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless us, every one.