Prosecute the torture.

December 14, 2007

Tony Norman Follows-up On The OPJ

A few days ago Maria, the OPJ, brought your collective attention to a skirmish in the continuing "War on Christmas." It was an article she found at Eschaton that itself pointed to an article in Haaretz:

Four Jewish subway riders who wished other people Happy Hanukkah werepelted with anti-Semitic remarks before being beaten, New York police and prosecutors said. The incident was being investigated as a possible hate crime.

The four were on a train in Manhattan on Friday night, during the eight-day Jewish Festival of Lights, when they were approached by a group of 10 people who offered holiday greetings. The victims responded, Happy Hanukkah and were assaulted by the larger group, police said Tuesday.

Police caught up with the train in Brooklyn and arrested eight men and two women, ages 19 and 20. They were arraigned Saturday on charges of assault, menacing, riot, harassment and disorderly conduct, the Brooklyn district attorney's office said.

Tony Norman's got some pointed commentary on the subject today. He begins:

Usually, I go out of my way to avoid giving rapacious media baron Rupert Murdoch any of my hard-earned cash.

Still, Mr. Murdoch's U.S. tabloid -- the delightfully unhinged New York Post -- remains a guilty pleasure from my days as a working-class New Yorker two decades ago.

It's easier to justify a lingering fascination with the scrappy tabloid by copping to reading it online. It spares me the indignity of paying $1.50 picking it up at newsstands this far west of the Hudson.

I'll save you the buck-fifty - here's the article from the Post. Turns out that one of the people who tried to stop the assault was Hassan Askari, a Muslim from Pakistan. Here's how Tony describes it:

According to news reports, Mr. Adler, his girlfriend Maria Parsheva, their friend Angelica Krischanovich and an unidentified fourth person boarded the Q train on Canal Street bound for Brooklyn.

Someone from the group that was later arrested shouted "Merry Christmas" to the quartet when they entered. The four returned the greeting with "Happy Hanukkah." The mob, reportedly drunk and hostile, perceived this as yet another salvo in the never-ending war against Christmas.

One guy rolled up his sleeves to show his Christ tattoo. According to Mr. Adler, the tattooed man mocked them and said: "Happy Hanukkah, that's when the Jews killed Jesus."

To prove they were more in tune with the spirit of Kristallnacht than Christmas, the group of abusive men and women surrounded the quartet and shouted "dirty Jews" and "Jew bitches" before breaking Walter Adler's nose, causing him to gush blood like a geyser.

Hassan Askari couldn't bear to watch it anymore. Alone among his fellow passengers, he rushed to the defense of four Jews being assaulted by "defenders" of Christmas. He got beat up for his trouble.

I especially liked the guy with the Christ tattoo who linked Hanukkah to the cruxifiction. I'm pretty well read and for a time I usually won playing Trivial Pursuit but I'd never heard that one. Ignorance is everywhere, I guess. And of course the broken nose for saying "Happy Hanukkah." Didn't he know enough to turn the other cheek? No, wait. I guess not.

We can be happy, though, that the War on Christmas is over.

And Bill O'Reilly won it.

Though if you want, get a gander at the column, O'Reilly uses to prove his point about "secular progressives." It's by Carol Towarnicky of the Philadelphia Daily News. O'Reilly quotes:
To that, this secularist pleads guilty. No religion should be in the public square, not even when the overwhelming majority of citizens practice it. Besides, the big boxes and malls make it impossible to miss the fact that it's Christmas.
But if you take a look at the rest of the column, it's not so much about removing religion from the public square, it's about returning Christmas to what it once was:

Old-timers may recall that, back when Christmas was a religious holiday, the four weeks of Advent was the time when many Christians prepared their hearts for the birth of Jesus. Back then, the first Sunday of Advent used to be the official beginning of the Christmas season - before it was replaced by another religious ritual, Black Friday.

Advent was a time of penance and fasting. It's why many traditional ethnic Christmas Eve celebrations - oyster stew for the Irish, "seven fishes" for Italians, pierogis for Eastern Europeans - are meatless. Of course, modern Christmas preparation also includes hardship, not to mention degradation. Shoppers wear themselves out spending that $435 billion we're expected to drop on Christmas this year. And what mortification could compare to the prostrations of desperate parents seeking this year's Big Gift?

Advent was a time of great expectation, anticipation and hope. Kids and grown-ups lit candles on Advent wreaths and counted off the days of an Advent calendar. These days, surveys show that many Americans count down to Christmas not with anticipation but with dread. Google "Christmas" and find scores of warnings - from psychologists about "holiday depression," from financial advisors about the massive debt we'll incur, and from law enforcement with tips to escape the seasonal increase in crime.

During Advent, Christians traditionally read verses from Psalms and the prophets. These days, it can be hard to hear Jesus' message over all the din, much less proclaim it.

But I fear I've digressed.

Happy Friday everyone!

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

John K. says: Where those the thoughts of George Washington as he wished his officers Merry Christmas prior to crossing the Delaware River. Or the thoughts of Gen. McCauliffe as he went around the perimeter of Bastogne in 1944 and wished his soldiers Merry Christmas. The left hates religion for one reason. If I get my rights from God, they can't take them away.

Rob Carr said...

Anonymous,

Are you trying to tell us the attack of the Jews on the subway train was acceptable? That the way our culture "celebrates" Christianity by overspending and completely ignoring what Jesus taught is correct?

On the other hand, 2PJs, I notice you mention the subway incident but have nothing to say about the atheist who went on the shooting rampage at a Christian training facility and a church. It's not upsetting of atheists murder Christians?

Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night, but still both sides seem a bit whacked.

Come out to Pleasant Hills Community Presbyterian Church's "Illumination" tonight for some good fun, music by our orchestra and choir, Pittsburgh's 2nd best solo act (according to the City Paper -- I'd put her first!) Cathasaigh, and plenty of food!

Say "Rob, you did a nice job on the programs for this event -- get some sleep when you get home tonight!" if you see a bleery-eyed Acting Director of Communications wandering around dazed with a camera and taking incoherent photographs.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

John K: Still no LOLs? Still no LMAOs? You shouldn't worry about losing your rights, John -- Bush and Cheney will handle that for you. Instead, worry about losing your raison d'etre, which would be to keep liberals happy with your hyper-ridiculosity.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Well, Rob, I guess you're right. We atheists are "whacked" because one of us was a crazy gunman.

Let's now consider Bin Laden, Saddam, Hitler, Mussolini, Tim McVeigh, Al Capone, Hirohito, the 911 hijackers, all those pedophile priests, and all the bishops that covered up for them. What does it say that all those folks are/were devout believers in one Omnipotent and Benevolent Flying Spaghetti Monster or another?

"Fair and Balanced" Dave said...

I especially liked the guy with the Christ tattoo who linked Hanukkah to the cruxifiction. I'm pretty well read and for a time I usually won playing Trivial Pursuit but I'd never heard that one.

That's because the guy who said it is not only a racist bigot, he's also an idiot. Christ was crucified a few days after riding into Jerusalem for Passover (not Hannukah).

Also, it was the Romans, not the Jews, who crucified Jesus (crucifixion was a method execution used by the Romans, not the Israelites)

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Dave, I believe that was Dayvoe's point.

Maria said...

Robb,

On the other hand, 2PJs, I notice you mention the subway incident but have nothing to say about the atheist who went on the shooting rampage at a Christian training facility and a church. It's not upsetting of atheists murder Christians?


I assume you're talking about Matthew Murray who was not only pissed because he couldn't go on a missionary trip for which he had trained ("I was told I was ’an introvert,’" and therefore could not serve as a missionary.), but who also according to a roommate heard voices:
Werner, of Balneario Camborius, Brazil, said he had a bunk near Murray's and that Murray would roll around in bed and make noises."He would say, 'Don't worry, I'm just talking to the voices,' " Werner said. "He'd say, 'Don't worry, Richard. You're a nice guy. The voices like you.' "

I also can't think of any atheists (perhaps you need to look that word up) who want to start their own religion either which Murray said he wanted to do:
"We’ll make our own religion and be our own God’s instead listening to some abusive pedophile church like what I was raised in telling us who’s ’saved’ and who’s not."

But, nice try Robb!

Sherry said...

that's what really gets to me maria, rarely does anyone take the time to find the facts. that shooter was from that church. he was a christian.

but why let facts get in the way of making themselves feel like they are personally being made into a martyr for christmas!

Bram Reichbaum said...

As long as we're discussing Tony Norman -- I hear there's some wild stuff going on down at the Chatham University newspaper, of which he is the advisor or whatever.

Seems they got into some racial controversy over a story, or over some letters-to-the-editor or something. The Administration was so spooked they delayed publication of the newspaper (possible prior restraint?). As a remedy, they're going to put a layer of oversight called the Office of Sensitivity or somesuch -- and that despite some controversies, Tony is going to head up that new effort.

Wild stuff.

Maria said...

Details! We want more details.

Omnitheist said...

Schmuck...

Hitler was not religious. On the contrary, the biggest mass murderers in history (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) were atheists and hated religion.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Hitler was Roman Catholic.

Anonymous said...

John K. says: How would any lefty in here know what Christians do or did? They don't go near a church an shrivel at the mention of God. And besides, what do they care? They don't believe in God, but like to run around demanding everyone else not mention it. Which is odd because lefties say a lot of stupid things that they should just shut up about, but no one demands they stop. What is it that the left, and Tony Norman, fear about God and religion? Hmmmmm.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Why so angry, John, so full of hate? Where's the Laughing Chickenhawk we know and love so well? Have you decided to entertain us with plain stupidity instead of you old laughing idiot act?

Maybe it's just me, but I liked the old John K better. This new angry one is kind of scary. Still funny, but scary, too.

Omnitheist said...

Schmuck...

It's good to see your actually talking with a neocon wingnut like myself. Hitler was raised a Roman catholic, but fascism called for the state being the highest power of all (nazi germany), as opposed to a higher being. It's not unlike the global warming movement, where Gore is the prophet and the earth is god.

Anonymous said...

The great thing about Dwight, of course, is that he can just dash off some kind of pseudo-clever coutnerpoint without even bothering to read through - and think about - a post. God, I wish could just regress to that level of infantile peevishness and cognitive dissonance without being saddled by a sense of shame or self-conciousness.

The point of the column, and this post, was how a group of bullies used the whole "war on Xmas" as an excuse to indulge in some good old fashioned Jew-bashing. The layers of irony are thick here. Aside from Jesus himself being Jewish , there's the fact that these so-called "Christians" were using a complaint about a religious holiday's emasculation as an excuse to intimidate others who were publicly expressing their good cheer brought on by a religious holiday. Finally, who was the only one to defend them? A son of Mohammed!

But, hey, you're just here for shits and giggles anyways, right Dwight? Still, the fact that you've gotten down to "you lefties don't know nothin' 'baht no religion anyhow" bit shows that you're little bag of rhetorical tricks is running low. Seriously, man, if you're not gonna bring you "A" game to these little trolling sessions of yours, just stay away from these blogs and go play World of Warcraft or whatever. Plenty o' trolls there, I hear. ;)

Bah humbug.

- Shawn

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Sigh. I thought even the most extreme Wingnuts had stopped spouting the "Hitler was an atheist" thing by now.

In the first place, so what? The Inquisition was Catholic. Does that invalidate the Catholic Church? Of course not. There are many things that invalidate the Catholic Church.

In the second place, these are Hitler's own words from various sources, including some from Mein Kampf:

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.

...every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’

I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior...

And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.

Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord

The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine.

As you can see, dear Right-Wingers, Believers, and Christians, good ol' Adolf was one of YOU.

And stop being so angry and filled with hate! It's Christmas time!

Scmuck Shitrock said...

Did I miss something? [I'm not talking about the Rapture.] Who's Dwight?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Schmuck. Here's how it breaks down: John K. = Dwight Schrute from NBC's "The Office."

- Shawn

Omnitheist said...

You have old Joe Stalin on your side, buddy

And Mao...

and Pol Pot

and that nut in Colorado

and the Columbine shooters...

Yep, the world sure would be better off without religion

sigh...

Omnitheist said...

Let's not forget...Hitler used Darwinsim as an excuse to cleanse Europe of the Jews and people he didn't see fit to be part of the state. So he used religion a couple times to attract followers, a lot of monsters have done that. Saddam Hussein claimed to be a devout follower of religion, when nothing could be further from the truth. All he cared about was maintaining his grip on power.

Would you prefer state atheism, Shitrock? Look at what Stalin and Mao (who by the way, were even more evil than hitler) did to all those who dared follow Christ. They were rounded up and executed during the purges or thrown in concentration camps and brutally torutured.

Not to mention...the Columbine shooters justified their act because they wanted to "preserve the species" through evolution, just like Nazi Germany.

Religion also does many good things too. Some churches in my town raise funds to help people all over the world. They also offer programs to send locals to help people in third world countries.

Come on, Schmuck...atheism is not a good thing. I myself have no definitive religion but I absolutely believe in a higher power.

Omnitheist said...

What do you know...here's another quote by ol' Adolf about his views...

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

It's funny, Schmuck...the things you can find if you do a little research.

Makes you proud to be against religion, doesn't it?

Schmuck Shitrock said...

So angry, Mr. Monotheist. So filled with hate for your fellow human beings.

But it is just like a Christian to say that if you don't believe in Jesus, you must be an atheist. Of course Hitler turned against Christianity late in his career. That is not disputed. Now, do a little more research, Mr. Omnitheist, and show us that Hitler became a non-believer. We'll wait.

What you have demonstrated in your hysterical, angry posts is that there are evil atheists (e.g. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot) as well as evil Christians (e.g. Hitler, Torquemada, Bush), evil Muslims (e.g. Bin Laden). True, and thank you for making my point. Surely there are evil Wiccans, evil Shintos, evil Buddhists, and evil sun-worshipers, too. I think we have certainly shown that one's religion or lack thereof has little effect on one's morality.

Not that it makes a point one way or the other, but you might want to know that the Columbine shooters were not atheists. Your favorite priest probably lied to you about that, so it's not really your fault.

To answer your last question: I'm not particularly proud to be against religion, but I do what little I can to thwart fraud wherever I find it and promote truth.

Omnitheist said...

Comrade Schmuck,

You were right...I did overreact and got angry. It was conduct unbecoming president of the neocon republic of wingnuttia. I ususally pride myself in being able to combat people who misrepresent the truth. For that I am sorry, however...

We can argue the beliefs of Adolf Hitler for days to come, but the fact is, he saw himself as the most powerful being, even though he at first tried to gain supporters by using religion as a pretense for his evil intentions. I have ten other quotes I can tell you about how he really felt about religion if you really want to see them.

And yes, the columbine shooters were atheists. They were darwinists who, as I said, wanted to preserve the "species", as idiotic as that sounds, it is true.

So the facts are in...there are evil atheists, christians, Muslims, and all other relgions. There are also plenty of evil people who do things under other pretenses.

My point I'm trying to make is: how is getting rid of religion going to solve anything when there's many other beliefs, including atheism, that do bad things as well?

P.s.

I also have a tendancy to get a little angry when you libs consider our president "evil", so you'll have to forigive me for my earlier tirades.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Oberfuhrer Monotheist:

(No, I'm not calling you a Nazi. This rank I have bestowed on you is just my little humorous response to your gracing me with the title of Comrade. Let me know if you would like to keep it. It does have a certain ring of authenticity when applied to a Wingnut, doesn't it?)

No one has said anything about "getting rid of religion" except you, Oberfuhrer. That's just one of the many transparent falsehoods you have attempted to perpetrate in your short but nefarious career on this blog. Not that my personal position has any bearing on the argument, but it might interest you to know that I am quite active in this country's most effective organization in promoting religious diversity. I am speaking, of course, of the ACLU.

Yes, you could give me more quotes about how your fellow Extreme Fringe Rightist, Mr. Hitler, felt about religion. Hundreds in fact. All of them would confirm that he was, like you, a superstitious fool who believed in some kind of Invisible Superman Who Lives on a Cloud. If you were able to provide evidence of his atheism, I have no doubt you would have done so by now, determined as you and your fellow Christians are to sew confusion and chaos.

The same thing goes for the Columbine shooters. And the nutjob in Colorado that you falsely praised for being an atheist was actually another of your fellows -- a religious fundie who went on a rampage against others when they kicked him out of their cult for being TOO religious.

I am pleased to see that you have come around to the truth that religion and morality have nothing to do with each other. This is remarkable flexibility for one of your kind. I congratulate both of us for your conversion.

Atheism does "bad things?" (Pithy, sophisticated phrasing, BTW. Very journalistic.) Are you under the impression that atheism is an organized concern, that atheists get together and sing hymns and collect money from poor people to give to rich, gay pedophiles the way Christians do? You may feel free to disabuse yourself of this delusion. There are atheists. There is no Atheism(tm). Frankly, we don't even go in for groupthink the way you do, so even if atheists cared to do organized evil, we wouldn't have the social structure to accomplish it the way you guys do. Certainly not on the scale that the Catholics, the Islamists, and Jews do murder and plunder in the name of god.

This anger thing of yours might bear some looking into, especially the way it can trigger rage by the simple act of encountering plain facts such as the complete corruption, incompetence, treason, and dishonesty of the Cheney Administration. Suit yourself, but if it were me, I'd consult a professional. I'm no shrink, but I might advise you to avoid surrounding yourself with other pathologically pissed off, paranoic schizophrenics. In other words, stay out of churches, synagogues, and mosques. Just a suggestion. None of my business, really.

Anonymous said...

John K. says: I knew lefties lived in a make believe world. Now I am being compared to someone on TV. LOL LOL LMAO That is so funny. Some left wing Hollywood writer makes up a character and the left compares him to me. LMAO Get off mom's couch shawn, and stop watching so much TV and do something with real people. LMAO I was compared to someone on TV. That is so funny.

Rob Carr said...

Maria,

I could have pulled out a number of examples of atheists who murder religious people, but yes, I was thinking of Matthew Murray.

Matthew Murray was a declared atheist who espoused hatred of Christians. All the messages from the Ex-Christian boards that he posted back that up. He stated he didn't believe in God on a number of them. From what I've read, the "start his own religion" was an intermediate step to becoming an atheist.

Sure, the guy was nutzoid, but every time someone who's religious goes whacko and murders people, it's taken as proof that religion is evil. Seems to me that turnabout is fair play. Then again, in the attacks on Christianity and Judaism and Islam, "fair play" doesn't seem to be the word of the day.

Schmuck --

The interesting part is that the atheists get their own loonies, just like all the other religious groups. There are pedophile atheists as well as pedophile Catholic priests. They're all evil.

I think the whole thing says less about religion and more about how the human brain is wired. No matter what you believe, your beliefs are a convenient excuse to do whatever you feel like or you find excuses to ignore what you believe.

BTW: You left Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot off the list. Oh, sorry, their names don't fit with your thesis. Oops.

Anonymous said...

Robb Carr;

You still need to explain how atheism causes mass murder. Because it's also true that Stalin and Mao also breathed oxygen and drank water throughout their lives. Does O2 and H2O cause mass murder? Obviously not.

That's the difference between causation and correlation. You've only offered evidence of the latter NOT the former.

What is it about not believing that there is a Supreme Being that causes mass murder?

Until you do that, you haven't done anything.

Schmuck Shitrock said...

Mr. Carr, we have quite thoroughly discussed Pol Pot, Mao, and Stalin on this blog -- in this very thread in fact, but that's OK, we don't expect Wingnuts to read, even those who can.

And my thesis, if you had read it (there's that pesky reading thing again), is not that atheists are perfect, or that there are no evil atheists, or even that all whackos who don't permit facts or science get in the way of their crazy beliefs are evil. What I wrote was (you ARE able to read? Comprehend? Focus?) that there are evil folks in every religion and non-religion and that there is no evidence that religion and morality are related. Of course this is only the third or fourth time I've written this in the past 18 hours or so, so we don't expect you to go to all the trouble of finding it.

What I have also written, and I doubt that even a religionist with enough intellect to power an annelid would dispute this, is that since atheists are generally not organized, most of the atheist nut cases have done their harm on a retail basis, while those who rape, pillage, and burn In The Name Of The Lord ARE organized around their rather absurd beliefs and thus do it wholesale. I admit that there are exceptions on both sides such as the gentlemen you named. Still, although religious persecution occurred in, for example, the Soviet Union, reports were overblown, and millions continued to exercise their delusions, particularly in Central Europe. After all, Christianity survived in the Soviet Union, whereas in any number of Christian countries, Judaism and even competing Christian sects were brutally repressed to the point of extinction. Rembember why the Pilgrims came to the New World? It was because a country with an official religion chased 'em out.

Anon 10:25, I must disagree with you on one point. Mr. Carr doesn't need to show WHY atheism leads to mass murder. He merely needs to show that atheists are significantly more represented among such murderers than folks who believe in nonsense. (Psst! But don't worry. It's the other way around.)

Omnitheist said...

Did you not read my whole comment, comrade Schmuck? If your going to attack me, you could at least read everything.

I specifically explained that Hitler was an atheist because he only cared about himself and his hold on power. Yes, he was raised a Roman Catholic, and may have still been a christian as he was writing mein kempf, but once he became the leader of nazi germany, he could have cared less about religion, something even you appear to agree with. To suggest he did what he did under the banner of religion is preposterous. Here's a few more quotes by our subject of debate, Mr. Hitler himself said these things throughout the 1940's.

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure"

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State"

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity"

You see, comrade schmuck, fascism and religion were mortal enemies. Hitler wanted to make himself the highest power of all, and the state was all-powerful. I know you don't like it, and you want it to be different, but this is the truth. Nazism was very much an evolutionist, atheist movement that only cared about power. Now that I have throughly explained this to you, I'm hoping you'll switch to another debate.

You continually deny that the columbine shooters were atheists, yet they claimed that evolution and the preservation of the "species" were the reason behind their actions. If I am wrong, prove it to me. You have denied my claims twice without saying anything to back it up.

Omnitheist said...

Comrades,

Because you libs just aren't willing to face the truth or accept any of my points this debate is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

I suggest someone does a post about global warming or Al Gore. I always enjoy taking on the far left in that debate.

What do you say?

Schmuck Shitrock said...

OK, Oberfuhrer, I guess you are too dense to pick this up, but I'll put it here for others who have the ability to learn: You have shown that Hitler turned against Christianity. That is NOT, repeat NOT, the same thing as becoming an atheist. Billions and billions of people who were/are not Christians have still been afflicted with faith in some other ridiculous scam designed to keep them scared, stupid and poor. Get it? No, I guess not.

You continually claim that the Columbine shooters were atheists, and if I understand you correctly (which becomes increasingly difficult as the foam hinders your speech) your evidence is that they understood (or more likely misunderstood) the science of evolution. Many evolutionary scientists are among the previously-mentioned afflicted, so that kind of shoots that theory straight to hell, if hell existed, does it not? Get it. No, I guess not.

But I'm going to try one last time to make the point I've been making all along, and to which you seem impervious: If Hitler WERE an atheist (which we have demonstrated repeatedly he was not) and if the Columbine kids were atheists (which ninety seconds on Google would reveal to be another falsehood), and even if some of the really, truly evil people of history were atheists -- such as, say, Pope Alexander VI and a number of other Popes -- it would show only that SOME atheists are bad apples, not that an atheist philosophy is causative. Otherwise, we will also have to conclude that every major religion in the history of civilization is likewise a cause of evil. Get it? No, I guess not.

It's rather sad to see a person so deeply committed to his denial and so terribly angry about being in the majority.

Omnitheist said...

Comrade Schmuck,

This isn't even worth arguing over any more. I have explained to you the truth about Hitler, nazism, evolution and atheism repeatedly and you continue to ignore it and ramble on about your previously rebuked talking points. It's getting pathetic.

I have done more than my ninety seconds of research on the columbine tragedy on google and have reached the conclusion I have said repeatedly above: the shooters were nazi praising evolutionists who wanted to preserve the species by ridding out the "weak". It was very much atheism inspired violence.

I have never suggested all atheists are bad. I know many who are indeed peaceful people. I am not saying all Christians are good either. Just look at the crusades and the inquisitions. The fact is though, as we both seem to agree, there are evil people on all sides of the spectrums. Let's just agree on this...the debate is starting to get stale.

Face it comrade, you've been rebuked. Now just admit it and then you can go back to your Bush bashing and we'll have a debate about that.

-Omnitheist, noble oberfuhrer of the neoncon republic of wingnuttia

...one of the last beacons of truth in a troubled time
(In addition to Sean Hannity)

Schmuck Shitrock said...

So this is what passes for Right-Wing "debate?" It reminds me of the Monty Python Argument Sketch ("Why, this is nothing but simple contradiction." "Is not." "Is too.").

Frankly, I'm a bit ashamed of having condescended to you so long. My original intention was simply to dispell your lies and move on. Amazingly, though, it would appear that I have finally penetrated the impenetrable and shown you some truth. Finally you admit that the insanity and immorality of religion is no cure for evil, and may in fact be contributory to it. We also agree that the rationality and ethics of atheist philosophy is not indicative of evil, and may in fact be preventative of it. These were my points all along, whereas you began this dialog with the assertion that atheism was a causative of evil. Phew! I feel as though I just delivered a 35-pound baby!

As for the business about Hitler and Columbine, I can't really blame you for being unable to:
-- provide even a single link to support your delusions;
-- gain the support of a single fellow Wingnut; nor
-- admit your defeat.

The training they inflict on you in those Temples of Ignorance and Madness has convinced you that conceding even a single insignificant point WRT religion will doom your soul to perdition. Some us outgrow the pre-adolescent indoctrination, but like you, most of us cling to it like an infant to Mother's breast.

Keep telling yourself you bested me, if it makes you feel better. Certainly you need some relief from the constant rage that inflames your ersatz mind. Like all the tenets of Christianity, just repeating lies to yourself constantly makes them come true in your perception. And if this relatively harmless fantasy of yours brings you a moment of respite, the least I can do for you is concede to your face, then join my fellows in the reality-based community in snickering up our sleeves.

I'll make you a deal. If you'll keep tossing up those untruths, I'll keep smacking them back in your face. Then you can keep saying that you "rebuked" me. How's that? (BTW, this technique will stand you in good stead in your endeavors to join the right-wing press. It's the way they've always done it.)

Omnitheist said...

Comrade...

Your doing it again...rambling on about points you have been prven incorrect on. I think your losing it, my friend.

I have offered repeated proof about Hitler and the Columbine shooters. You have offered some proof on the former, but I was able to counter it with numerous quotes that contradict your claims.

I could see just how angry and delusional you were in that last comment. It must be eating away at you that an ignorant neocon wingnut like myself has outsmarted you pretty much every time, when your usually able to crush other opponents with your ferocious character assasinations...after all, once someone disproves you, what's left to do?

I should also say that throughout my adolescence I never even went to church. In fact, I grew up in a relatively secular family. It was only later on I asked questions and began going to church with friends. Since then, I've attended church with mormons, catholics, and evangelicals. I've also visited synagogues and mosques, too. Therefore, I have had no indoctriantion forced on me, yet another claim of yours I have now rebuked.

I'm sure you are just foaming at the mouth as you read this, so I'll tell you what. You can respond to this comment and have the last word on this thread. This debate really is getting old, and there are many other lies I need to straighten out on some other threads.

So write up another rant, I'll be waiting for you to debate me in a more recent post.