What Fresh Hell Is This?

April 28, 2010

Arizona Travelogue


rich10e said...

Let Arizonans run Arizona....

Maria said...

Last time I checked, Arizona was in the US and thus under the laws of the US Constitution.

rich10e said...

for your review....Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

* Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
* Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
* Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.


Maria said...

For your review:

The Fourth Amendment which is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures. The amendment specifically also requires search and arrest warrants be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause
and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment which makes the Fourth Amendment apply to the states.

What exactly is is “reasonable suspicion” to believe that an individual may not be a citizen of the country"?

Do you know that Hispanics have lived in the western states for CENTURIES? Far longer than the ancestors of the people who wrote this damned bill.

When the AZ Governor was asked what an illegal alien looked like she could not answer.

Do YOU walk around with your birth certificate on you?

That's what this guy's going to need to do now.

He's Hispanic. He's an American citizen who was born in this country. Yet despite providing his driver's license and social security card, he was detained until his wife came with his birth certificate (what, are we all Obama now?).

Is that America?

Maybe your America, but not mine.

Conservative Mountaineer said...


You're not playing fair.. bringing facts to an argument with a Liberal. Only emotions/feelings count, don't ya know?

A huge part of the AZ law is word for word same as Federal law.

Maria said...


See above. I'm a little confused because you guys hated a proposed national ID card a couple years back. I guess it's OK if it just applies to brown people.

Conservative Mountaineer said...

I'm going to amend my "word for word" portion with "based upon".

In fact, I have a copy of SB1070 and am reading it right now.

Conservative Mountaineer said...

All AZ is doing is instructing LEO to follow Federal law. But, that wouldn't fit your Liberal meme, would it?

Maria said...

Via azleg.gov:

"Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S."

What, pray tell, would be "reasonable suspicion"? What would a "reasonable attempt" be?

How in the world will they avoid racial profiling?

Maria said...

Why did a native born Hispanic have to provide a birth certificate? (see comment above)

Maria said...

Show me the federal law that requires any and all federal authorities to demand papers of someone who they suspect may be in the country illegally.

rich10e said...

To quote Rich Lowry"The police already have the power to stop illegal aliens, a power the Arizona courts have upheld; they already can ask about someone's legal status (the U.S. Supreme Court noted in 2005 that it has "held repeatedly that mere police questioning does not constitute a seizure" under the Fourth Amendment); and they already can detain illegal aliens. The Arizona law strengthens these existing authorities."

So the courts do not agree with you.I'm sure any Hispanic who has lived in our western states for centuries are already citizens.Its the ones who creep across the border at night illegally that bother me.The belief that if you can sneak in to the US and get yourself a job,your kids into school,and free medical,you're good to stay is very flawed logic.

gtl said...


What if you are visiting, and an AZ cop just doesn't like you. He decides that you look suspiciously Canadian. He asks for your birth certificate.

What do you do?

rich10e said...

gtl...being a law abiding citizen I would cooperate to the best of my ability.Since 9/11 and the changes in travel requirements, when going out of state i bring my driver license and my passport.I believe this would satisfy the officers request.

gtl said...


You assume that the documents that you carry would suffice. But, as detailed, that's up to the officer. How does he know they are authentic? You Canucks are shifty, after all. A real American would have that birth certificate. (He can still detain you, while confirming that your passport is authentic, or, demanding that you produce a birth cert, anyway.)

Maria said...


You keep talking about illegal aliens when the way this law is written will trip up ANYONE who the police (or any other official) has a "reasonable suspicion" may be an illegal alien. Moreover it not only demands police (and any other official) to basically be suspicious of ANYONE, it also gives citizens the right to sue police if they don't think that they're being suspicious enough of ANYONE who might be in AZ.

That is far and beyond what you and Lowry are claiming that it does. Heck, Lowry even admits in his article that you quote that "it’s unavoidable that Latino citizens will be questioned disproportionally under the law." Why does he have to admit that? because the law basically DEMANDS racial profiling.

How the heck does a cop have a "reasonable suspicion" that someone -- actually anyone he comes in contact with -- might be an illegal alien? What is the criteria he/she is going to use?

Will it not have something to do with the person's ethnicity/accent? (Which is NOT probable cause).

Do the police have some magical power to know what's in someone's wallet before they demand that they show proof of citizenship?

Right now, the police can't just demand that you prove your citizenship to them and right now you can't sue the police if you don't think they aren't arresting enough illegal aliens, so Lowry is being deceptive or ignorant.

Moreover, that latter part about suing, according to Mark Miller, a professor at the University of Arizona Law School:

"This kind of ... private right of action for an executive decision," -- that is, a law enforcement policy adopted by the government -- "is to my knowledge completely unknown, and to my mind, stunning," The effect, said Miller, could be to "shut law enforcement down by taking all of their time and budget defending cases" brought by citizens who support the law -- which has the backing of about 70 percent of Arizonans, according to recent polls.


"And, lawsuits aside, both men said that the clause sends a clear message to law enforcement that it should prioritize immigration enforcement -- above even violent crimes -- for fear of being sued."

This law overreaches by MILES.

And, as a citizen, should you have to bring your passport/birth certificate with you as you walk down your own block? Cause that's what you would need to do everytime you walked out your door if you were an Hispanic in AZ.

So, again, yes, for ALL Latinos in AZ it will be: "Show me your papers." (And, even for some non Hispanic-looking folks as they'll have to hassle some non-Hispanics just to not look like they are racial profiling.)

Ol' Froth said...

There is also the "legitimate contact" provision. Certainly, a traffic stop is a legitimate contact. So is a mere encounter, so is a person reporting a crime to the police. Do you think this law might provide a disincentive to Latinos, both legal and illegal, to report crimes against them to police, for fear that they will be targeted for additional scrutiny, even though they're the victim? I certainly do.

rich10e said...

If asking everyone for their papers would stop the flow of illegals,I'm all for that. I'm amazed at the demand to legalize an illegal activity and the faulty logic to support that demand. The "illegal"cheats on his taxes, but then so did Tim Geitner, defrauds the medical system,and has their children educated illegally.Multiply this by 20,000,000!To continue to frame this crime as an assault on brown skin people is disingenuous. To expect our economy that is already financially unstable to absorb the new health care participants and the illegals into a system that is awash in debt is economic suicide.To ignore the consequences on ongoing illegal immigration is mind boggling.

Maria said...

Why do they come here? For jobs. Hey! I know! Why not really punish the employers who break the law by hiring them?

gtl said...


Would you recommend that we all carry an internal passport, as a means of controlling illegal immigration? (I mean, you already carry yours for interstate travel.)

Ol' Froth said...

Rich, one of the primary rights of US citizens is the right to be left alone. I don't want to produce papers just because some official says so, and as an LEO, I don't want to be forced to go around asking people to prove their citizenship, I've got better things to do, like preserving life, protecting property, and maintaining order. If an individual isn't threatening someone's life, stealing someones stuff, or causing a ruckus, I as a law enforcement officer, DO NOT CARE!
The "illegal"cheats on his taxes, but then so did Tim Geitner, defrauds the medical system,and has their children educated illegally.

Got cites for any of that? Fact is, most illegal immigrants pay taxes, both income and sales taxes. I have no idea where you are coming with "defrauds the medical system" are you suggesting that immigrants fake injuries to cheat insurance companies? How are they having their children illegally educated? Are there cladestine schools somewhere?

EdHeath said...

If illegal’s “cheat” on their taxes, it is done with the full complicity of a US employer. The illegal might not even know they are cheating on their taxes. When a roofing contractor drives on to a Home Depot parking lot at 6:30 in the morning, and picks six guys out of the fifty who are just waiting around, he knows exactly which laws he is breaking. He is not going to fill out paperwork for workman’s comp coverage for these guys, nor if he going to check to see if they have required insurance, since the roofing contractor is going to treat them as independent contractors who have entered into a agreement with him to provide a day’s worth of roofing work. On the illegal’s side, they probably understand none of that.

The IRS has provided employers with an instant method to check new employees SSN’s. Evidently many, perhaps most employers who happen to hire illegal’s prefer to keep doing so, rather than comply with Federal law.

If illegal’s had taxes with held, if they were treated as regular employees, they wold probably make so little they would owe no additional taxes when they files, might make so little that they would get their with held taxes back, and even would likely qualify for earned income credit. But because they are “illegal”, they are not eligible for the EITC. They are almost certainly renting the home they live in, so their landlord is paying property taxes (which are often school taxes), they pay sales tax, gas tax, all those othe little taxes. So the “cheating” illegal’s supposedly do is not really cheating at all. But I would bet that most illegal’s would feel better about dangerous work on a roof, or cleaning offices all night long, if they had official status with the government.

Tell me Rich10e, why aren’t the Republicans pushing, or even just mentioning a guest worker program?